mods to Mel's mix on the Front Range?

Hi everyone! New to the forum but I'm going to jump right in...
I've been reading the SFG books for years, and employed some techniques back when i had a garden; but haven't had a garden space since we moved a few yars back. This year we decide to fix that, but it turned out that the location of the water valve box made it a MUCH bigger project so we are putting in the garden raised boxes along with a bunch of other landscaping and irrigation fixes. The landscaper of course just mentions some generic "planter's mix" and I hope to get something as close to Mel's mix as possible.

Early in the spring I went to all the local places where various components might possibly be found. I don't have my notes at the moment, but I do recall it being hard to come up with a variety of composts (especially if all animal compost counts as one, per one of Mel's postings).
Plus, one of the landscapers we interviewed (not the one we are using; he works with the designer we used to plan out the whole yard) even said something about there being different needs here because it is so hot and dry.

So, my questions for you (as I have to get this settled soonish with the landscaper that we *are* using) are: 
• do you make any modifications here because of the particular climate we have? 
• And how do you go about finding the different components that are harder to find?  I'm in Longmont, about an hour north of Denver, FWIW; not sure if I want a field trip (multiple field trips for the volume) into Denver to get things.

The garden boxes are going to be very nice...inner dimensions 11' x 4' with very sturdy beams allowing sitting on the edge, and deep enough for good rooting. Two of them with space between. A future phase will have a bed devoted to raspberries (if we still want that then.)

In summary, any advice about how to go about making Mel's mix here in NE Colorado, or any modifications, would be much appreciated! I am so excited to be gardening again!

Thanks, 
CarolynBG in Longmont

For what it is worth, I disagree with Mel regarding his philosophy of all animal manure is equal. The science proves that it is not. So go for it, find as many different source/types of compost as you can to get the best mix you can. IF you cut corners when making the Mel's mix, you will have less than stellar results in your garden.

Check local craigslist, farm and garden. Also, Freecycle website when looking for composts.

There are numerous threads about this that may have valuable information for you. The search feature may help you locate them.

Regarding modifications, I wouldn't modify the Mel's mix but I would suggest you plan on mulching to retain moisture and keep soil temp down.

Do a search on craigslist. I did one for Denver Colorado, and found lots of good compost! Not sure how far you are, but there were some in Boulder and surrounding areas. http://boulder.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=319&subAreaID=&query=compost&catAbb=sss

Good luck. For me, I'd go with LOTS of compost if you can't find the peat and vermiculite. Also, maybe mulch heavily with something to keep the moisture in your soil. good luck!!

I never even thought of Craigslist and the like. Thanks for the ideas and replies!
cjbg

I am also a newbie...so I just recently got done stressing over this and I was happy with my results...so here's your opinion based on extensive research and a complete lack of experience outside my 100+ little sprouts that I have from the 180 attempted seedlings that I sowed 5 days ago...(Yes I've been counting them)...

I also disagree that all animal composts count as one source...and I'm not sure if those words were taken out of context at some point or what...but in my opinion its near impossible to find five different resources of quality composts in most areas when 4 of them need to be non-manure sources...and as a previous poster wrote, scientifically, not all manures are the same and most are very different and will provide completely different nutritional value to your mix.

I ended up with the following 5 sources as my mix (8.25 cu. ft of compost total) - 3 cu. ft. Black Kow cow manure compost (from Lowe's or most garden supply sources...found it as low as $3.99 for 50 lbs which explains why I went heavy with this source), 2 cu. ft. of Rabbit/Worm Compost (I lucked out here...just google searched compost for every little town in my surrounding area and found a great source in the next town over where nothing else of personal relevance ever existed, do your homework, it will likely pay off), 1 cu. ft. Black Hen chicken manure compost/fertilizer (this stuff is a little pricey, but worth it for another quality source), 1.5 cu. ft. Mushroom compost ($3.33 at Lowes), and finally where I cheated .75 cu. ft of a cheap 50% forest products/50% cow manure compost from Home Depot. I used more of what I considered the better sources...Again, my mix of 5 composts probably isn't the best in the world, but this isnt a perfect science and its still probably better than other methods.

In terms of your climate, I'm no expert, but in my opinion since it is so dry, I would say to make sure you get your 1/3 peat...I went a little lower than 1/3 in mine because it's so humid here most of the year so I don't have to worry quite as much about my mix drying out...my garden is also located in partial shade...

Do what works for you...try to get as close as you can to what is suggested...but not everything is feasible for inexperienced gardeners on a budget...I've never planted a garden before in my life...but after researching the square foot garden methods I believed that even if I ended up a little off of the precise goal/methods, I would still end up with much better results than most other gardening methods.

Good luck.

one of the ads above in my post had 4 YARDS delivered for $149!! That is CHEAP can't believe it includes delivery! wow. You have some really good nearby sources...lucky you!!
Delivered Price:
Fort Collins, Longmont, Greeley: $149.00
Loveland: $139.00

camprn wrote:For what it is worth, I disagree with Mel regarding his philosophy of all animal manure is equal. The science proves that it is not. So go for it, find as many different source/types of compost as you can to get the best mix you can. IF you cut corners when making the Mel's mix, you will have less than stellar results in your garden.

Check local craigslist, farm and garden. Also, Freecycle website when looking for composts.

There are numerous threads about this that may have valuable information for you. The search feature may help you locate them.

Regarding modifications, I wouldn't modify the Mel's mix but I would suggest you plan on mulching to retain moisture and keep soil temp down.

You have to stop worrying yourselves silly  .. Mel also says in his books use whatever is available to get the five way compost mix.

The secret is to get those materials correctly composted and frequently /sometimes that's where the problem lays . That's why you move over to your own home produced compost as soon as possible after starting  or if your patient you make your own home made composts correctly before you even design your beds.

 The intention is I feel is to get a sensible amount of nutrients & trace elements  from as many sources as possible without getting the compost too acidic.  go too much over board or below the bar  in any direction and you'll not get the best out the raised beds .

 A good guide I have used over the years is that if you can grow the common stinging  nettles in your soils or mixes then it will be OK for the vast majority of fruits and veg .

southern gardener wrote:one of the ads above in my post had 4 YARDS delivered for $149!!  That is CHEAP can't believe it includes delivery!  wow. You have some really good nearby sources...lucky you!!
Delivered Price:
Fort Collins, Longmont, Greeley: $149.00
Loveland: $139.00

 
mystified...ads above in your post? I am not seeing ads in the posts nor in the link to craigslist... I'd love to find that source!

cjbg

CarolynBG wrote:

southern gardener wrote:one of the ads above in my post had 4 YARDS delivered for $149!!  That is CHEAP can't believe it includes delivery!  wow. You have some really good nearby sources...lucky you!!
Delivered Price:
Fort Collins, Longmont, Greeley: $149.00
Loveland: $139.00

 
mystified...ads above in your post? I am not seeing ads in the posts nor in the link to craigslist... I'd love to find that source!

cjbg

Never mind, found it! and you guessed correctly on us being near Boulder. This particular seller is in Windsor, nearish to Loveland and about halfway between Ft. Collins and Longmont (which is where we are; Boulder is even further)

camprn wrote:For what it is worth, I disagree with Mel regarding his philosophy of all animal manure is equal. The science proves that it is not. So go for it, find as many different source/types of compost as you can to get the best mix you can. IF you cut corners when making the Mel's mix, you will have less than stellar results in your garden.

Check local craigslist, farm and garden. Also, Freecycle website when looking for composts.

There are numerous threads about this that may have valuable information for you. The search feature may help you locate them.

Regarding modifications, I wouldn't modify the Mel's mix but I would suggest you plan on mulching to retain moisture and keep soil temp down.

+1 one the manure issue. I swear by a mix of manures and my kitchen scrap/fall leaves/vegetation/cardboard homemade compost. The more ingredients the better

Kay

Unfortunately, home compost is never going to happen here...first, I have no good place to put it, and second, I tried years ago at our old place, and failed miserably. And got stung in the process when some yellow jackets settled in (and in the course of dislodging them, the pile was ruined by pesticides...) (I am not good at turning it, in large part because I have some major problems in my shoulders and neck. I tried various things to add to it to help it have the right mix (bone meal? it's been awhile) and that didn't do much either. probably because I didn't turn it. Anyway, it just NEVER cooked, never composted. It was a mess.)

Am looking for the local sources for all the components right now, esp. the coarse vermiculite...According to a calculator for the Mel's Mix (squarefoot.forumotion.com/h22-mel-s-mix-calculator) I need 66 cu ft per raised box. Yikes. (The designer and landscaper are building it a bit deeper than I was originally going to do.)

You can always fill the bottom of the planter with cheaper soil, or even rocks, and save the Mel's Mix for the top six inches or so.

Re not composting because of your bad shoulder and neck, could you use a worm factory? Or get one of those tumblers you can spin?

Marc Iverson wrote:You can always fill the bottom of the planter with cheaper soil, or even rocks, and save the Mel's Mix for the top six inches or so.

Re not composting because of your bad shoulder and neck, could you use a worm factory?  Or get one of those tumblers you can spin?

I was just this minute discussing with my husband the option of using less expensive soil below and Mel's Mix for the top few inches... I think that sounds like a great idea.

I've never heard of a worm factory, but I think anything I do might have to be in the future (the garden and rest of the landscaping are enough for now). Those things sound promising however, and if it is something I can do, I can always add it in in a future year. Thanks for the ideas.

you could always use some of that compost that's $149 delivered to fill your boxes, then put your mm on top of that. Personally, I'd use more compost and less peat and vermiculite, but that's up to you. The MM can add up in a hurry, and there's really no need to have it go that deep. good luck to you

CarolynBG,  Welcome to the Forum!   

As you can see, there are a lot of folks here to help you.  How deep are your boxes?  I agree with SG that if they are really deep, use something less expensive to fill the lower part and save 7-8" at the top for the MM.  Six inches for the MM and a couple inches for mulch during the summer.  Any kind of cheaper compost or earth dirt will work.  But if you use earth dirt, use weed cloth on the dirt before adding the MM if the dirt has weeds or seeds.

Photos, please.  We love seeing other gardens, plus photos will help the folks help you when you have a question.

Check out Worm Tube in the Search box.  You may want to add a couple of those in each large box come this spring.  I use 3" white PVC instead of 4" because my boxes are small (2' x 3' and 2' x 4')

Regarding a compost pile, I have a little 3' diameter, 3 ' tall circular one.  I can't turn it (no room plus a bad back) but the interior heats up as high as 160* and really cooks the center.  I have decided that the only way I can have homemade compost is to collect the center 2' diameter core (removing the top un-composted part) after it cools for a couple weeks.  Then I use the un-composted sides and top for the next batch I build.  If you have 3' diameter space, you may want to consider doing it this way.

Thanks for everyone’s advice!
So here is what I think I need to do. I’m working with a landscape designer and landscaper for the larger project of the yard. If I’m going to use any variant of Mel’s mix, they want to mix it in completely with the planter’s mix the landscaper was going to use, they don’t like the idea of a hard interface between different soils. But of course, that would dilute the Mel’s mix, and I don’t want their planter’s mix at the top. I don’t think I can afford, nor do I need, more than 6-8” of the Mel’s mix. So I am just going to tell them that for my garden I really don’t want to mix them other than a couple inches at the interface, and I will take care of that, and they don’t need to worry about it as it is my garden and not supporting the plants that they will be planting.

With that out of the way (I’ve been going back and forth with them, nicely of course! on this the last couple days, while simultaneously trying to find sources for everything), here’s my plan:

Two 11’ x 4’ raised beds: if I want approx 6” MM then I need (according to the Mel calculator) 7.33 cf each of peat and vermiculite, and 1.47 cf of each of the 5 composts per box. If I want 8” those numbers change to 9.17/9.17/1.83 – per box. Doubling and splitting the difference, I’m going to try to get 18+ cf each peat and vermiculite, and 3.6 cf each of the composts.

I have been comparing prices at 3 local stores (Lowes, Home Depot, and a local nursery that is simply awesome, though sometimes more costly). Here are best prices:
thanks again for your advice and for reading my long post!

Peat: local store has 3 cf bales for 11.97 (so I’ll get 6)

Vermiculite: can find coarse only online. Found two sources, one linked from this website (uline) and one via google (greenhouse megastore); both have 4 cf bags.

Where     unit   #     price   ship       total
uline     34     4     136     57.92      193.92
          33     5     165     73.90      238.90
megastore 24     4     96      38.99      134.99
          24     5     120     185.45     305.45

 
The odd thing is that the price for shipping goes up so much at the Megastore between 4 and 5 bags. I tried different quantities and it remains oddly high for several quantities above 4. I’ll probably go with 4 from Megastore unless I can get them to get their shipping down for 5 to something in line with 1-4.

Composts: As y’all know, there is a variety out there. I’m going to get some mushroom mixture, a fruits and veggies mixture, and a forest and wood mixture with some poultry. Not sure what I should get for the last two: “sheep and peat (and compost)”, and “cow and compost”, or only one of those and look for one more thing? On each of those I’m going to pay a little more to get the ones marked organic.


So
• how does that list sound for a mix of composts
• should I only get one of the sheep+ or cow+ (and if so, what should I get instead for the 5th compost)
• is peat being part of the sheep compost going to throw off the mix too much (am hoping not, because it is not that much of the overall mix)

Carolyn,  You are doing an admirable job between working with the landscapers (traditional) and trying to do SFG!  I didn't check your math, just the ingredients and interface parts.  I'm a Newbie, also, and have learned a lot the hard way this year.

Traditional landscapers / gardeners always want to blend between hard material and fluffy materials.  But they are usually dealing with dirt.  In SFG, ZERO interface is fine.  In fact, you can set boxes on concrete, with a shallow liner of weed fabric to keep the MM from washing out and fill with 6" of MM.  Talk about Zero interface!!  You don't need to have 8" to start with if your MM is nutritious.  Save a little money by keeping it at 6" (after watering it well).

Don't forget that 3 cu ft of compressed peat moss will make around 6 cu ft when broken up and fluffed.  In MM, it will comprise 2" of the 6" of MM, so a 3 cu ft bale, when fluffed, will cover 36 - 1 foot squares.  Measure peat moss when fluffed, only.

As far as sheep 'n' peat, or cow 'n' wood compost, do what ever you want.  But, adjust the peat moss down accordingly.  Peat moss is not nutritious.  It adds lightness to the mix, easy for roots to go down and seedlings to pop up, and for mixing in future scoops for compost and it absorbs water..  The vermiculite absorbs water and nutrients and releases them when needed.  Only the compost supplies the nutrition for your plants.  So make sure that nutritious compost is at least 1/3 of your MM mixture.

Where I live, there is a family room nursery that carries 6 cu ft of medium vermiculite for $40.  But they said that SFG doesn't work that well.  They said that adding scoops of new compost to the beds each time you plant anew, doesn't add enough nutrients.  Boy, are they wrong.  If you add only Kellogg's compost, it's true, but adding a mixed compost from different sources works.  The best will be from your new compost piles!

If you haven't done so, I would strongly recommend that you buy a bag of each of your chosen composts and open them to see what they look like.  See if they are really what they claim to be.  Then you will have a better idea of what other compost you might want to add to them.  Quality control on the bagged stuff is hit and miss sometimes.  Like large chunks of uncomposted wood and rocks!  I had to screen one of my products that had 1" pieces of wood and rocks.

That's all from me.  Others will probably post their impressions tomorrow.  I'm very excited for you!  

I'd steer way clear of the forest and wood mixture.. as it will most likely be for top dressing as a mulch I doubt it will be real aged composted wood mixture that actually produces its own source of nitrogen rather than consuming it as it decays over a period of several years . 

 Guano ( bird muck ) is good so is bat droppings  . Anything with fish in it is fantastic and the same goes for seaweed .

 When you mention animal based composts  if there are none that have straw in them , perhaps think of getting some . for the straw will soak up the animals urine and therefore be very beneficial to the end finalized mixture by way of providing trace elements and nitrogen.

plantoid wrote:I'd steer way clear of the forest and wood mixture.. as it will most likely be for top dressing as a mulch I doubt it will be real aged composted wood mixture that actually produces its own source of nitrogen rather than consuming it as it decays over a period of several years . 

 Guano ( bird muck ) is good so is bat droppings  . Anything with fish in it is fantastic and the same goes for seaweed .

 When you mention animal based composts  if there are none that have straw in them , perhaps think of getting some . for the straw will soak up the animals urine and therefore be very beneficial to the end finalized mixture by way of providing trace elements and nitrogen.

Ah, good to know. I don't know where I can get guano, but I'll look. Thanks for the advice, Plantoid! -- C

CarolynBG wrote:

plantoid wrote:the forest and wood mixture..  I doubt it will be real aged composted wood mixture that actually produces its own source of nitrogen rather than consuming it as it decays over a period of several years . 

When you mention animal based composts  if there are none that have straw in them , perhaps think of getting some . for the straw will soak up the animals urine and therefore be very beneficial to the end finalized mixture by way of providing trace elements and nitrogen.

Ah, good to know. I don't know where I can get guano, but I'll look. Thanks for the advice, Plantoid! -- C

That's why I recommended buying one bag of each of your choices.  See what it is actually like.

@Sanderson: Wow, thanks for the detailed reply and good info! esp about the peat. I guess I can probably get half the amount I was thinking to get.

The composts I've listed are about the only ones I've found in small enough amounts (the lovely 4 cubic yards at a great price mentioned by Southern Gardener is just WAY too much for my needs for the Mel's Mix (and I don't feel like fighting with the landscaper about what he's going to do for the rest, just my top 6" for my two garden beds). However, if I don't need to do the MM until the spring, then I have all winter to look for more of the other varieties of things (such as guano as suggested by Plantoid, or rabbit as suggested by BrianDorry55). I really don't have to have it all accomplished now, just need to do it in time to start planting in April, right? :-)

(And I'd been having that thought about zero interface when I looked at the pictures on the front of his books where they are flat on the cement... but hey, if the roots really do decide they'd like to go deeper, who am I to argue? One reason I'm getting the higher raised bed [got talked into it by the designer, but I think she is not familiar with SFG anyway... OTOH, I do like the idea of wider borders than the thin board I was going to use] is so that it's easier to sit on it and reach, than if it were lower. What the heck. Not getting younger, knees and hips not getting better.)

And I will not run amiss if I wind up making a bit more than needed for the two main garden beds; I had bought some 4'x4' raised frames that I don't want to waste, so I'm going to stick those in the corner of the kids' playspace and put some space-taking veggies there...maybe pumpkin or zucchini or other squash... something I hadn't originally planned on. (As it is, I will have 88 sq ft instead of 64, and now I have to figure out what more I will grow!!)

btw, here is my current list of the veggies and fruit I plan to grow (my list is based in part on my 10 or so year experience at our previous house in the 90s, just a mile away so same climate and sun exposure pretty much; but in native clay with just some amendments a couple of times over the years...):
Tomatoes (oh they grow SO well here! several varieties, including yellow pear), Basil (multiple), some other herbs, strawberries, eggplant, zucchini, onions, green onions, chives, shallots, bell peppers, carrots, beets (several varieties--my kids love them and so do we), beans (pole).  When the kid is done with the play space in a few years, I will add a raised bed for raspberries. :-)

I have had very bad luck with asparagus, broccoli, brussels sprouts, and corn, and don't feel a need to do those [also, am allergic to the corn plant, as it turns out, so a problem if planting close and I have to walk through them]. I used to have bad luck with peas and lettuce but that was back when I was a grad student and busy through early May, and couldn't plant until too late for the heat here. (We have such odd growing seasons...can have frost or even snow into May, but summer is HOT. and then first frost can be as early as early September or as late as late October.) I intend to try lettuce and peas at least during the early months next year. And maybe in the fall. We do not use hot peppers, so no point in those. 

I'm really excited to have a real garden again too! (I've tried container gardening, and it didn't do well; I need to have water on a timer, and that's one of the things the landscaper will be fixing for us.)

Thanks again for everyone's help and advice!

sanderson wrote:

CarolynBG wrote:

plantoid wrote:the forest and wood mixture..  I doubt it will be real aged composted wood mixture that actually produces its own source of nitrogen rather than consuming it as it decays over a period of several years . 

When you mention animal based composts  if there are none that have straw in them , perhaps think of getting some . for the straw will soak up the animals urine and therefore be very beneficial to the end finalized mixture by way of providing trace elements and nitrogen.

Ah, good to know. I don't know where I can get guano, but I'll look. Thanks for the advice, Plantoid! -- C

That's why I recommended buying one bag of each of your choices.  See what it is actually like.

Yes, I think that's a good idea. Some of the bags actually were ripped open yesterday at Home Depot so I could see what some were like.

carolynbg...we were just at Home Depot. They have a product called "EcoScraps". I haven't used it, but it's supposed to be 100% compost from all plant based items. They have a website if you wanna check it out. it was $5.97 per cf, which is kind of pricey, but it sounds like a good source. Good luck.

southern gardener wrote:carolynbg...we were just at Home Depot. They have a product called "EcoScraps". I haven't used it, but it's supposed to be 100% compost from all plant based items. They have a website if you wanna check it out. it was $5.97 per cf, which is kind of pricey, but it sounds like a good source. Good luck.

Yes, that's one of the ones I saw and had in mind to use, I think. :-)

plantoid wrote:I'd steer way clear of the forest and wood mixture.. as it will most likely be for top dressing as a mulch I doubt it will be real aged composted wood mixture that actually produces its own source of nitrogen rather than consuming it as it decays over a period of several years . 

That was definitely my experience in the forestry-heavy region of the Pacific Northwest I live in. It was hard to get stuff without forest products as a main or second ingredient, no matter what kind of compost it was supposed to be or how much it cost or where I got it. And very few of my many different store-bought composts were well-composted. Most had plenty of dry wood in them, and they'll require a lot of weathering, nitrogen supplementation, and just plain diluting with much better home-made compost before they'll be very good contributors to my garden.

Strongly agree with Sanderson, too, about not buying a second bag before you see what's in the first one. It's so helpful when stores cut a slice out of a bag so you can see what's inside it. Of course, when they don't, you can always, well, you know.