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trellis & Green Beans

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Post  Fishtell 5/2/2021, 11:24 pm

trellis & Green Beans   P1150619A friend is using our garden and planted 5 Green Green Bean  seeds next to each leg of each Trellis leg.     He's saying the beans will run up the trellis.     You'll  Notice there are no squares to go by. He does not believe in SF garden pholosophy    This bed is 4 x 8'    

The SF gardening book and Planner says to plant 8 green bean seeds per s.f.   As you can see in the photo he is taking up the whole 32 squares with  these two trellises/    He planted 5 seeds next to each leg.  His plan is to keep the best 3 of each seed planted next to each leg.   There are 8 legs and if he gets 3 good plants from each leg he'll end up with 24 beans plants growing up the trellis.  Or less than 1 green beam plant per s.f   

I'm really confused by Trellises and seeds per sfg..   If the book and or s.F. planner says plant 8 green bean seeds per s.f. that means there should be 32 x 8 or 256 green beam plants growing in the 4 x8 raised bed without a trellis.  What do you think is going to happen under those  trellies that have 5 seeds next to each of the trellis legs.    

What would happen if he had a grid and planted 8 seed per square in the 32 s.f bed with those trellis in the same positions ?  or if he put a stake in each square for the beans to grow up on?

Alan
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Post  OhioGardener 5/3/2021, 8:40 am

This seems to be confusing Pole Beans with Bush Beans.  Bush Beans can, and should, be planted 9 per square - they don't climb and don't need a trellis.  Pole Beans are climbers and need a trellis. Due to their rapid and heavy growth, they are normally planted 4" to 6" apart at the base of the trellis. I plant the pole beans along the edge of the raised bed on a trellis that goes straight up, and use the rest of the bed to plant other vegetables, such as lettuce, summer squash, kale, etc.

My thoughts on the trellis arrangement in that photo - it is way too small for pole beans, and planting more than one or two seeds at the base of each leg of the trellis is a waste of seeds.

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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 8:58 am

Good Morning "Ohio",
Thanks for the comments.  The beans are definitely Pole beans.   This is my first veggie garden  I think the issues I have with nib (friendly issues)  of why we have issues with my
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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 8:59 am

Sorry Ohio, can't seem to figure out how to send message with photos, will try again
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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 10:22 am

trellis & Green Beans   P1150620
Ok Ohio,  Ill try again... 
My thoughts  in bullet points:  s

This is my first garden ever, about 300 s.f. of planting area.  Not quite finished as photos will show.  Will be installing bird netting across top of garden and stapling on wire mesh on all sides.   (already have wire mesh 2' below grade and 2' away to form an underground "L" to prevent ground hogs from getting in.   We are bartering; allowing good friends and neighbors to use space in return for construction help. 

*  We are a little late for spring but will make best of it and be ready for a full season in 2022

*    Those helping to build it and who we are offering space in garden to,   are not totally committed to the SFG as am I.   After reading the SFG book and joining this Forum my thoughts on why they are not committed and why I am.     

*    We have too much planting area and they just are not under any pressure to be more efficient.  
*   You might be able to see in the photo their small assigned spaces near the entry gate.  
*    They are planting in their assigned space  without grids, don't know if they'll actually use the grids when I build them.   
* .  If the food shortage and or price of food gets worse they are not setting up the SFG infrastructure as am I.   They'll wish they had more experience in planting more efficiently.  
*   They are thinking more short term and not long term.  
*   I've not put in the grids yet because I'm waiting for my order at Home Depot for (63) 8' sections of 1/2 x 3/4 pine moulding to show up.   
*   I'm in charge of building the garden, my wife is overseeing the ordering of seeds, starters and planting.  This is also her first garden of any size.  and she is also one of those not totally sold on SFG. 

Alan
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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 11:24 am

Hi Ohio, 
So are you saying that if planting pole beans or any veggie that would grow on a trellis that you ignore the SFG or "Garden Planner"  recommendations of the number of seeds per square and just plant the seeds at the base of each trellis or stake?   And if so, How do I know how many seeds to plant and where?  l.e.  at base of stick or at base of each leg ?  

Thanks again in advance 

Alan
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Post  mollyhespra 5/3/2021, 11:31 am

Firstly, nice looking garden, Alan! Looks like you took advantage of your slope well, building into it like you did.

Second, I think the proof will be in the pudding. Once you start your own SFG garden and the others see how much more productive it is, they'll come around.

Third, about those woodchucks. They're dumb as a stump. They'll go to the base of your fence and try to dig right where the base meets the ground. (Ask me how I know.) BUT they're also actually really good climbers. My solution was to bend 2' wide wire fencing into an L and just set it at ground level securing it with landscape staples and covering it just a few inches in mulch. The 7' fencing then went in front of what is now only a 1' bit that sticks up. This allowed me to then go and use regular twisty ties to secure them both together so none could squeeze through the gap. The top foot of my 7' high fence was left unsecured so that the fat chucks would flop back down to the ground when they tried to climb the fence.

BTW, how much space did you leave between your beds?
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Post  donnainzone5 5/3/2021, 11:44 am

I really like your garden!

Have you looked at this item from Home Depot for grids?  It's durable and inexpensive.  Royal Mouldings 6578 1/4 in. x 3/4 in x 8 ft. PVC Composite White Screen Molding-0657808049 - The Home Depot

Have your wife and your neighbors read All New Square Foot Gardening?  If not, that might explain their objections.  Explaining it in one's own words leaves for gaps in understanding and flies in the face of everything they think they know about gardening.
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Post  OhioGardener 5/3/2021, 12:12 pm

@Fishtell wrote:Hi Ohio, 
So are you saying that if planting pole beans or any veggie that would grow on a trellis that you ignore the SFG or "Garden Planner"  recommendations of the number of seeds per square and just plant the seeds at the base of each trellis or stake? 

Basically, yes, but not exactly. Remember, the SFG recommendations for number of seeds per square are based on the "thin-to" spacing for the plants. The same is true for spacing for vertical growing on a trellis. If the package says "thin to 4" to 6" between plants", that is the trellis spacing.

 How do I know how many seeds to plant and where?  l.e.  at base of stick or at base of each leg ? 

Rather than basing the seed spacing on "the base of each trellis or stake", base it on the "thin-to" spacing, i.e., plant a bean seed every 4" to 6". You only use the edge of the square where the trellis is, so the rest of the square is available for other plants.

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Post  mollyhespra 5/3/2021, 12:34 pm

@OhioGardener wrote:
(snip)
Rather than basing the seed spacing on "the base of each trellis or stake", base it on the "thin-to" spacing, i.e., plant a bean seed every 4" to 6". You only use the edge of the square where the trellis is, so the rest of the square is available for other plants.
(/snip)

That's how you do it, OG? I've always just planted the whole square next to the trellis with pole beans at the proper spacing and then let the bean plants lean over to find the trellis. Doesn't take long at all for them to reach over each other.
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Post  OhioGardener 5/3/2021, 1:03 pm

@mollyhespra wrote:That's how you do it, OG?  I've always just planted the whole square next to the trellis with pole beans at the proper spacing and then let the bean plants lean over to find the trellis.  Doesn't take long at all for them to reach over each other.

Doesn't that create a huge mass (mess?) of beans growing on the trellis? In this picture the pole beans are planted single row along the trellis on the edge of the bed, and there are other things (bunching onions, carrots, beets, and summer squash) planted in the squares in front of the beans. This picture was taken on July 12th of last year.

trellis & Green Beans   Pole_b15

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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 1:43 pm

@OhioGardener wrote:
@mollyhespra wrote:That's how you do it, OG?  I've always just planted the whole square next to the trellis with pole beans at the proper spacing and then let the bean plants lean over to find the trellis.  Doesn't take long at all for them to reach over each other.

Doesn't that create a huge mass (mess?) of beans growing on the trellis? In this picture the pole beans are planted single row along the trellis on the edge of the bed, and there are other things (bunching onions, carrots, beets, and summer squash) planted in the squares in front of the beans. This picture was taken on July 12th of last year.

trellis & Green Beans   Pole_b15
I don't see any grids in these beds? How do you decide where each square starts and ends ?   Smile
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Post  OhioGardener 5/3/2021, 1:51 pm

@Fishtell wrote:I don't see any grids in these beds? How do you decide where each square starts and ends ?   Smile

I have portable, folding grids that I lay on the bed for planting and then remove them. I have drip irrigation on all of the beds, and it is much easier to maintain them without having grids above or below the lines.

trellis & Green Beans   Grid_c11

trellis & Green Beans   Grid_o11

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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 6:55 pm

@OhioGardener wrote:
@Fishtell wrote:I don't see any grids in these beds? How do you decide where each square starts and ends ?   Smile

I have portable, folding grids that I lay on the bed for planting and then remove them. I have drip irrigation on all of the beds, and it is much easier to maintain them without having grids above or below the lines.

trellis & Green Beans   Grid_c11
Thanks Ohio. That explains it.   I'm going to construct foldable and portable grids also and lay them   in inside of the beds on top of the Mel's Mix.   Since this is our year one of this... I'll stick to the book and leave them in all season  and see how that goes.  The reason we don't screw them in on top is because we are putting a 2x4 cedar trim or cap on the edges of all beds.... to make it easier to sit on and it looks good.  So screwing the grids on to this cap won't work. 
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Post  Fishtell 5/3/2021, 7:14 pm

@mollyhespra wrote:Firstly, nice looking garden, Alan!  Looks like you took advantage of your slope well, building into it like you did.  

Second, I think the proof will be in the pudding.  Once you start your own SFG garden and the others see how much more productive it is, they'll come around.  

Third, about those woodchucks.  They're dumb as a stump.  They'll go to the base of your fence and try to dig right where the base meets the ground.  (Ask me how I know.)  BUT they're also actually really good climbers.  My solution was to bend 2' wide wire fencing into an L and just set it at ground level securing it with landscape staples and covering it just a few inches in mulch.  The 7' fencing then went in front of what is now only a 1' bit that sticks up.  This allowed me to then go and use regular twisty ties to secure them both together so none could squeeze through the gap.  The top foot of my 7' high fence was left unsecured so that the fat chucks would flop back down to the ground when they tried to climb the fence.  

BTW, how much space did you leave between your beds?
Hi Molly, 
Regarding the partial Retaining Wall you see.   We used left over Durisol blocks from the house build put on a bed of quick setting concrete and then filled the blocks with left over fiberglass rebar and more concrete.  The garden is now relatively level, with slight slope from north to south.  There are french type drains installed on the north side where you see the blocks still not yet covered with back fill and landscaping.  Also what you don't see is wire mesh that goes down 2 ft below the visible grade and then out 2' away from the garden.  That mesh will soon be extended right up to the top rail.  The top will have bird netting so the garden will be have maximum security... no intentions of sharing food with birds or animals.   We plan on removing the netting at end of each season and putting it back up each spring. 

We ran from our well to the garden PEX piping and installed a hydrant which might be seen near the entrance gate.  

Space between beds is 3 ft. 

Alan Smile
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Post  cholyk 5/3/2021, 8:44 pm

@Fishtell wrote:Good Morning "Ohio",
Thanks for the comments.  The beans are definitely Pole beans.   This is my first veggie garden  I think the issues I have with nib (friendly issues)  of why we have issues with my
Sorry, didn't mean to "vote" on your post! I thought it was a scroll bar!
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Post  cholyk 5/3/2021, 8:54 pm

I just planted all 8 pea plants in the one square. I figured they would "reach the trellis eventually and I could guide them up in the direction I want them to go???? I put a square of carrots next to them so they have more room to grow up and then to the right above the carrots. I guess we'll see if it all ends up a jumbled mess!
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Post  Scorpio Rising 5/4/2021, 12:13 pm

I do it (trellis planting) like OG, I put them all up against the trellis (I also use straight up vertical ones) and use the recommended spacing.  I also plant shorter stuff in “front” of the trellising plants.  Radishes in front of peas, lettuce in front of cukes, etc. Some leaves (cukes and melons in particular) get really big and shade the area.  

Agree; my neighbor was won over by my SFG successes!  Take lots of notes, there is a learning curve for sure!  

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Post  sanderson 5/6/2021, 4:01 pm

It's hard for row gardeners to embrace the tenants of SFG. It's easy for beginners, though, because they don't have any old habits. I plant pole beans (and peas) at 8.sq. ft.  This 2'x4' bed with 2 trellises currently has 64 bean seeds planted. (Old photo from 2016) trellis & Green Beans   Beans_14

I plant bush beans (and peas) at 9 per sq ft.  I use horizontal trellises and/or small perimeter fencing to prevent them flopping out of the bed.  Photo from 2020 showing poor germination rate, so just look at the overall photo. trellis & Green Beans   Bean_h13

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Post  donnainzone5 5/6/2021, 4:22 pm

The tenets of any system must be understood to make that system work; SFG is no different.  For those who are accustomed to one way of doing things, it's difficult to change their minds.  However, seeing can be believing.
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Post  Cmonster90 5/10/2021, 8:48 am

I think it might be fun and educational for you and your garden buddy to each plant a box of green beans with your respective methods. Then as the season progresses you can compare progress. Without too many words I think your friend will see the advantage you have using the SFG method. Some people have to see to believe. Take lots of photos over the growing season and weigh or photograph your harvest. This will make for a great demonstration garden for those who question the usefullness of SFG method going forward.
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Post  Scorpio Rising 5/10/2021, 12:29 pm

Cmonster90, great idea!
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Post  kristinz 5/14/2021, 12:39 pm

@OhioGardener wrote:
@mollyhespra wrote:That's how you do it, OG?  I've always just planted the whole square next to the trellis with pole beans at the proper spacing and then let the bean plants lean over to find the trellis.  Doesn't take long at all for them to reach over each other.

Doesn't that create a huge mass (mess?) of beans growing on the trellis? In this picture the pole beans are planted single row along the trellis on the edge of the bed, and there are other things (bunching onions, carrots, beets, and summer squash) planted in the squares in front of the beans. This picture was taken on July 12th of last year.

trellis & Green Beans   Pole_b15
 
I love this!!  How far apart of these beds and what is the length of cattle panel used to create the arch?  I may try this next year as we are switching over to the galvanized beds.  Also, due to the depth of the beds, do you fill the bottom with something other than Mel's Mix? I tried to look for a thread on these beds but couldn't seem to find what I was looking for.  Thanks in advance!
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Post  OhioGardener 5/14/2021, 5:38 pm

@kristinz wrote:I love this!!  How far apart of these beds and what is the length of cattle panel used to create the arch?  I may try this next year as we are switching over to the galvanized beds.  Also, due to the depth of the beds, do you fill the bottom with something other than Mel's Mix? I tried to look for a thread on these beds but couldn't seem to find what I was looking for.  Thanks in advance!

The beds are 4' apart, and the cattle panels are 16' long. When placed in arch to make the arbor, the center of it is just over 6' high, which allows me to pick the beans, tomatoes, etc., that hang through it.  Each cattle panel is 50"x16', so there are 3 panels side by side to form the just over 12' long arbor.

Those beds are 18" high, and the bottom 10" is filled with wood chips, scrap wood, brush, etc., and then covered with straw to make a solid base. The top 6" to 8" is MM.

Those beds are from https://www.metalgardenbeds.com/original-series.html

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Post  sanderson 5/16/2021, 4:07 pm

You can also fill the bottom of the new beds with clean sand or top soil and just use the MM for the top 6-7", leaving room for summer mulch.

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