Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Well, more specifically, my plants' veins.  Not really knowing any better, I applied a mixture of neem oil and peppermint soap to my seedlings quite regularly.  I continued this practice well into their young adulthood.  I wasn't aware of the negative issues neem oil presents.  I was actually following advice from a post in this forum.

However, what's done is done.  I noticed something quite interesting:  My plants are free of any pests.  Zilch.  Now, this might be a "honey moon" period.  Perhaps very bad things are to come. 

When I first began learning about neem oil, I did many Google searches.  I found the following website:

 http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

This website makes many claims.  I'm doubtful of some based on information you all have posted.  Camprn and Pollinator in particular have either posted  comments or posted links to websites containing information  contrary to claims in the "discoverneem.com" web site.

All that being said, in this website, under the heading "Neem oil works from inside the plant,"  the following claim is made:

"Neem oil breaks down very quickly, too. It is especially susceptible to UV light. But neem oil is also a systemic insecticide. That means you can pour it on the soil (not pure neem oil of course, you use a dilution or extract) and the plants absorb it. They take it up into their tissue, and it works from the inside. A leaf hopper may take a couple of bites, but that's it."

Experienced gardeners and newbies alike, please give me your opinion on this claim.  I am dubious, but then again, my plants are free from bad insects.  What's more, bees visit often so my veggies have bloomed flowers that have become baby tomatoes and baby watermelons.

I'm in your area, and the weather this spring has been very wet and cool here.
I haven't had any reason to use any type of insect pest control in my garden yet.
In years past I have noticed wet years there just are less pest.. I reckon it has something to do with the moths breeding cycle.. but thats just a guess..

Hi GaRedClay,

Thanks very much for your comments (I like your user name by the way!).  I think you are on to something in mentioning our weather.  As you say, perhaps insects experienced a set back with all the cold and wet conditions.  I've taken a look at the forecast, and we are expected to have isolated/scattered thunder storms tomorrow through Saturday.

Overall, our weird weather has been a pain in the tookus, but maybe it has a silver lining.  Hope you have much success in your gardening.~

Wind

I'm afraid I have bad news this time. I just came in from checking my catalpa worm

trees and there are caterpillars in the trees now.. so don't put up the pesticides yet.

if they are in the trees when the garden pest moths will laying their eggs too..

Windmere, neem is a natural pesticide that is actually good for the plants.  (I know camprn disagrees with this, but from everything I've researched about it, it's true.  It's used pretty extensively in India, and it's even used in toothpaste.)  

I know someone personally who swears by it and uses it and his plants thrive.  It's also apparently very good for the soil microbes.  

If you have frogs or amphibians in your garden area, it's probably best not to use it, as they ingest things through their skin.  I have found no authority that can tell me positively that spraying my plants would hurt the frogs, but I have a multitude of frogs at my house, so I can't use it because I don't want to take the chance of injuring them.  

I'm curious, you said you've been using it on your plants, and you have no insects, but "whats done is done."  Have you seen some detrimental effects?

jazzycat wrote:Windmere, neem is a natural pesticide that is actually good for the plants.  (I know camprn disagrees with this, but from everything I've researched about it, it's true. 

How is neem good for the plants? Are you saying it acts like a fertilizer or adds nutrients to the growing medium or what? I guess I'm a bit confused   

jazzycat wrote:It's also apparently very good for the soil microbes.  

How so?

Windmere,  You asked for comments but I'm still nervous to respond.  I respect the rights of others to do things their way. Here's my 2 cents.

The words "natural pesticide" have always concerned me.  Neem oil is a "natural pesticide" that is used in a lot of ways in India.  But, this is also a country that uses lead in some medicines, including stomach aches for children and for fertility in women.  Lead is "naturally" occurring in some areas, in some clays.  But it is a poison.  It is a poison to bones and soft tissues, especially the nervous system.  I worked over 11 years in the Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program and personally worked with families with severely, moderately and no obviously damaged children.  Most of the time the child looked fine, but when they started school, the damage became evident.  Mainly in abstract thinking.  One child that was lead poisoned in India via folk medicine could not walk at 3.  An Asian child was given folk medicine with lead and it was a miracle they were alive.  Another child could not count their age when they were six.  The damages from lead is irreversible so every child I saw was permanently damaged in some way, even if it didn't show at the time of case management.  Veggies grown in another family's lead-contaminated soil garden all had various levels of lead as tested in the public health lab.

So, back to neem oil, a natural pesticide.  Both pyrethrin and neem are "natural pesticides."  In fact, every plant has "natural pesticides" that our livers have to detoxify for us.  Just a natural process of man eating plants for yeah many decades.  If plants didn't have natural pesticides, the insect world would decimate the plant world.  My concern is how much ADDITIONAL pesticide should our livers detox?  How many chickens with growth hormones should we eat?  Do you get my thought?

I use neem oil on my ornamental roses and gardenias for mildew/mold.  However, I use dish soap, cooking oil and baking soda on my orange tree.  I personally would not use neem on veggies except for spot treatment, occasionally.  In fact, if I used a pesticide I would probably use Sevin.

I don't think there is any great harm from eating the vegetables that have been sprayed with neem oil.  Especially those that are fruiting plants.  The neem would be very diluted, say, in the squash or bean.  I don't know about the leafy veggies like collard or bok choy.  At least it has "Caution" on it and not "Danger" or "Warning."  My recommendation, and I am not an expert by any means, is to pass on eating the leaves that were actually sprayed and wait until new leaves appear and eat those.  I'm meaning the leafy greens, not the fruiting ones.  The fruiting bodies (tomatoes, squash, beans, etc.) would have a dilution factor in their favor.  There is a saying that "dilution is the solution to pollution."

I'm not against pesticides.  I pour termaticide around the very foundation of the house, but I don't plant veggies there.  And I am careful that it goes into a small trough against the foundation.  The trough is carefully deep watered to get it down into the soil.  I can cover a spill with dirt or bark so my cat doesn't contact it.  I use pesticides against the aggressive wasps, or are they yellow jackets?  I use a rigid fly swatter against black widow spiders because almost nothing else will kill them!!  I would use DEET if I had to be around mosquitoes or ticks.

I had breast cancer, so I double-consider a lot of things now.  The risk of plasticizers in plastic, is something made in China or India where they don't have the same regulations?  Unregulated water wells.  I control what I CAN control in my environment.  Neem oil is only one thing in our environment, and it's not even in the upper 100 of bad things.  Everything in moderation, and when appropriate, if it has to be used.

Man, I need a nap! I'm exhausted!

I fear I have opened a can of worms... pardon the pun (big groan).

Jazzycat, my reference to "what's done is done" really refers to some of the concerns voiced by sanderson. 

Sanderson, I would have been exhausted as well after writing so much on this subject.  Thank you for such careful consideration and thoughtful comments. 

I guess my main question is:  Can neem oil actually permeate our plants to the point of becoming virtually a part of them (from the inside out).  I'm understanding that it can.  I guess this next leads to... Can this hurt us?  In my case, my affected plants were all fruit bearing.  Sanderson, your thoughts about leafy greens vs. fruit bearing plants make sense and allayed some of my concerns.

Rooster, I've heard firsthand from someone who swears by it and knows all about the importance of soil and soil microbes (it's his business).  I started looking into it after speaking with him.  

In India, they use neem trees/products from trees to rebuild soil that's been depleted.  

Following are a few links about neem.

http://www.agrogreencanada.com/whyus/fof_a_neem.php  (be sure to watch the video)

Here is a study on neem and soil.  Not only does it kill bad bacetria, etc, it benefits the good ones.  Soil fertility also went up.

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/medwelljournals/rjagr/2008/12-17.pdf

And here are a couple of articles.

http://www.purezing.com/living/gen_articles/living_articles_organicgarden_neem.html

http://yourorganicgardeningblog.com/neem-oil-for-the-garden-ahead/

Here is information from the Neem Foundation.

http://www.neemfoundation.org/neem-articles/neem-in-organic-farming/pest-management.html


I know a lot of people are resistant to it because it IS a pesticide.  However, it's not a pesticide in the traditional sense.  Neem is a special case, because it IS beneficial in so many ways.

jazzycat wrote:Rooster, I've heard firsthand from someone who swears by it and knows all about the importance of soil and soil microbes (it's his business).  I started looking into it after speaking with him.  

In India, they use neem trees/products from trees to rebuild soil that's been depleted.  

Following are a few links about neem.

http://www.agrogreencanada.com/whyus/fof_a_neem.php  (be sure to watch the video)

Here is a study on neem and soil.  Not only does it kill bad bacetria, etc, it benefits the good ones.  Soil fertility also went up.

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/medwelljournals/rjagr/2008/12-17.pdf

And here are a couple of articles.

http://www.purezing.com/living/gen_articles/living_articles_organicgarden_neem.html

http://yourorganicgardeningblog.com/neem-oil-for-the-garden-ahead/

Here is information from the Neem Foundation.

http://www.neemfoundation.org/neem-articles/neem-in-organic-farming/pest-management.html


I know a lot of people are resistant to it because it IS a pesticide.  However, it's not a pesticide in the traditional sense.  Neem is a special case, because it IS beneficial in so many ways.

From what I gather, and I could be reading it wrong, but most of the "benefits" come from using the actual leaves or broken down Neem trees. Neem cakes. The Neem oil is a concentrated by-product we use as a pesticide. I may be missing it, but I'm not seeing the same benefits stated for the Neem oil.

Jazzy, the Neem Foundation article was interesting.

Rooster, I agree using the cakes is probably more beneficial.  The person who started me on this journey, however, uses the oil, mixed with Dr. Bronner's Soap, every two weeks or so.  And going by what he said, his plants love it, and it boosts his soil fertility/microbial activity and he never has pest problems.  I can only tell you what I know, what I've been told by someone I trust, and share the knowledge I've found through researching the subject.  I'm not saying I'm right, or this is right.  I'm just saying, this is what I've learned.  

One last thing.  If you watched the video from the agro-green-canada site, Vandana Shiva talks about neem.  She is a scientist and an activist for farmers in India.  Big corporations always try to patent certain active ingredients in plants so they can make money.  I think this is where we get into trouble.  When you take one or two ingredients from a plant and then condense it down to make it stronger and stronger so you can make more profit, then yes, it's going to cause problems.  I don't think using the natural oil in a diluted form would be that damaging.  But I would be careful what brand I buy (make sure it's a complete oil in it's natural state, with no additives) and be sure to follow the instructions.

I'm seriously going to research if this tree will grow where I live, and if it will, planting one.

I think the OP was about the use of neem oil specifically.
 Windmere, I don't really know the answer to that. To keep things on the simple side, like  Mel intended for the method, I personally will continue to consider Neem oil as a pesticide, with an intended specific purpose and treat it as such.

From a previous post.   

https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t8207-neem-trees


Kay


Their home made brew worked.