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Post  Windmere on 5/30/2013, 10:49 am

Hello all,

I hope I did the right thing with regard to typing "FB" before my heading on this new post. Still getting the hang of things. This post is a blend of two things:

1. Is certified organic neem oil desirable? I've contacted two of my sources, and they both say that, while not certified organic, their product is "all natural." I've done a forum search using "organic neem oil" as my query, but haven't found any discussion on this topic.

2. In my research I have found some references to "Garrett Juice," and I want to get forum members' take on this substance.

Regarding item (1): I have found neem oil (certified organic by OMRI) on Amazon (one pint for 20.95 including shipping):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A0ONB2/ref=pe_225750_30121390_email_1p_4_ti

I have found other sources, but many end up costing even more than Amazon (especially with shipping costs).

As of late, I've been light handed with neem oil applications. Pollenator set me straight on that a while ago (which I appreciated). I've found from my own experience (like you all) that it is not a "cure all," but it does help when plants are overrun with nasty insects. I'd really like to know if anyone here prefers organic neem oil. Organic often = more expensive, but I'm willing to pay if folks think it's a good idea.

Regarding item (2): In conducting additional research, I've come across the name "Howard Garrett." He has been trained as landscape architect with several other distinctions. His bio says he is devoted to "the research, education and promotion of organic products and practices." Also known as "The Dirt Doctor," he is based in Texas. Mr. Garrett's bio can be found here:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/organic/garden/content/code/about/

Mr. Garrett has developed a formula for foliar fertilizer called, of course, "Garrett Juice." The basic foliar fertilizer mixture is made up of compost tea, molasses, natural apple cider vinegar, and liquid seaweed. If you add garlic/pepper tea and orange oil, this stuff is supposed to act as both a feeder and an insecticide.

The formula for this mixture can be found here:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/Garrett-Juice-br_vq2210.htm

For good measure, here's the link for a video (only discusses the foliar formula):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnlCNYz6oTA

If you want to buy Garret Juice pre-mixed, Amazon (of course) does sell it (1 quart):

http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Mender-Garrett-Juice-Plus/dp/B004GXYB2K/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1369924320&sr=1-1&keywords=garretts+juice

I saw that Amazon also sells it in gallon sizes.

Using the neem oil and Garrett juice in tandem is supposed to have beneficial results (this is why I combined the two topics). I found a post on this topic in the "Dirt Doctor Forum." Basically it says that applying Garrett's Juice is best done after applying neem oil.

The Dirt Doctor Forum post can be found here (second post from moderator):

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/newforum/root/garrett-juice-and-neem-t2808.html

I am not at all trying to promote The Dirt Doctor approach. I have not found any "Dirt Doctor" or "Garrett's Juice" posts in our forum. This might be because the Dirt Doctor approach is not beneficial.

Being that I am a newbie, I need the advice of experienced gardeners on the topics of organic neem oil and Garrett juice. I apologize in advance if this topic has previously been discussed.

Thanks so much for reading this. Let me know what you all think.

study

PS: I've found it amusing that all over the internet marijuana growers have had a keen interest in Garrett Juice. There are many posts from all over discussing its benefits when growing marijuana.

Very Happy



Last edited by camprn on 5/30/2013, 12:39 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : corrected title)
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Post  camprn on 5/30/2013, 11:36 am

In the words of Mel B. 'Keep it simple'...Unless your plants are stressed from starvation there is really no need to overdo the fertilizing thing. Plain old compost tea to the growing medium or a foliar feeding(if it seems that it would be of value) would work just as well.

Regarding neem oil, unless you are trying to get your own organic growing certification, the cheap stuff will do what you need it to. There is my $0.02.

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Post  Windmere on 5/30/2013, 11:45 am

Thank you for your advice camprn. I guess I'm over thinking things. Going "by the book" is the best course. There's been so much talk about problem tomatoes, I was inspired to do a bit more research.

Perhaps, as boffer suggested, a test tomato or tomatoes might be a good way to evaluate these claims.
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Post  camprn on 5/30/2013, 12:41 pm

Knowledge is a powerful thing, wisdom is using it well.

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Post  No_Such_Reality on 5/30/2013, 1:18 pm

@Windmere wrote:
Regarding item (1): I have found neem oil (certified organic by OMRI) on Amazon (one pint for 20.95 including shipping):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A0ONB2/ref=pe_225750_30121390_email_1p_4_ti


A minor nit, that's OMRI listed not organic certified. The product is ORMI listed for use in Organic Certified farming. That product is NOT Organic Certified.

Synthetic fertilizers have a very similar ORMI listing for use, when the soil deficiencies warrant it, allowing the continued Organic certification.

The ORMI list is:
"May be used as a pest lure, repellent, or as part of a trap, or as a disease control. May be used for other pesticidal purposes if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met, which requires the use of preventative, mechanical, physical, and other pest, weed, and disease management practices."

http://www.omri.org/simple-opl-search/results/green%20light%20neem

Section 205.206(e) is: (e) When the practices provided for in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this section are insufficient to prevent or control crop pests, weeds, and diseases, a biological or botanical substance or a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be applied to prevent, suppress, or control pests, weeds, or diseases: Provided, That, the conditions for using the substance are documented in the organic system plan.

The conditions are sections A-D and all subparts: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title7-vol3/pdf/CFR-2011-title7-vol3-sec205-207.pdf

Which even allows the application of that recycled rubber mulch you see.

Here's the entry for Compost Tea: Compost Tea
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments, Crop Pest, Weed, and Disease Control Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description: Compost tea used as a fertilizer or soil amendment is subject to the same restrictions as raw, uncomposted manure. It may only be (i) applied to land used for a crop not intended for human consumption; (ii) incorporated into the soil not less than 120 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion has direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles; or (iii) incorporated into the soil not less than 90 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion does not have direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles. See also MANURE – RAW, UNCOMPOSTED; COMPOST – IN-VESSEL OR STATIC AERATED PILE (PLANT AND ANIMAL MATERIALS); COMPOST TEA; and MANURE TEA. Compost tea made on the farm may be used to suppress the spread of disease organisms. Compost tea sold for disease suppression must comply with all pesticide regulations. See Glossary for definition of "compost tea."
NOP Rule: 205.203(c) & 205.206(d)(2)
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Post  jazzycat on 5/30/2013, 2:03 pm

No_Such_Reality, I don't understand. What is the difference between being OMRI certified for organic gardening, and organic certified? It seems like a redundancy. What am I missing? thinking

Also, Neem Oil is a natural substance, not synthetic. Right? I've read up quite a bit on it and from everything I've read, it seems to be a great thing for keeping plants healthy and thriving. And the soil. Isn't it also good for the soil?
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Post  No_Such_Reality on 5/30/2013, 4:16 pm

20 Mule Team Borax™️ Solubor®️ Sodium Borate 20.5% B is an Ormi listed and approved synthetic Boron supplement.

http://www.omri.org/simple-opl-search/results/boron
http://borax.com/docs/pdfs/solubor-omri-cert.pdf?sfvrsn=6

It's a synthetic boron sodium-hydrate. If you test your soil and show the boron deficiency, you can use it on your field and still be certified organic.

The USDA Organic program has multiple levels of certification. Certified 100% Organic, Certified Organic, and Certified Made with Organic. Why is that important? Well, Certified Organic allows up to 5% non-organic ingredients per national list.

The USDA program info sheet is here:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446&acct=nopgeninfo

The Organic Code is located http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=3f34f4c22f9aa8e6d9864cc2683cea02&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title07/7cfr205_main_02.tpl

Section 205.606 specifies the national list of non-organic products. Along with a couple other sections naming the non-synthetic an synthetic items usable in the processing.

A very readable version is in purple here http://foodbabe.com/2012/05/24/full-list-of-non-organic-ingredients-allowed-in-organic-food/


Confused yet? Look for the 100% certified label.


And no more adding compost tea to your SFG, it's a restricted organic ingredient. Smile

As for being natural, in the USA, there's no government restrictions on the use the term.
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Post  jazzycat on 5/30/2013, 4:44 pm

ahhh, thanks. That was helpful.

Yes, I'm aware of how companies use the word "natural" to trick people into thinking their product is something it isn't. Sad.
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Post  RoOsTeR on 5/30/2013, 5:22 pm

Yes, I'm aware of how companies use the word "natural" to trick people into thinking their product is something it isn't. Sad.


The word Organic is used in much the same way... Wink

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Post  Windmere on 5/30/2013, 5:41 pm

Hi No_Such_Reality,

I very much appreciate your posts. After I read your first post, I attempted to decipher the Code of Federal Regulations on my own. I was swimming in a sea of words. I was especially confused by the reference to the NOP (National Organic Program). Based on what I've understood, this agency acts in conjunction with the USDA in connection with the various levels of multiple levels of certification?

I loved your next post. The link to the Food Babe list was awesome! I was searching for this list on my own and was having a devil of a time.

What it all boils down to is, as you said: Look for the 100% certified label.

Your links were great.

Now with regard to the compost tea... I was planning on making my own, but now you have me really nervous about it.

Shocked



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Post  No_Such_Reality on 5/30/2013, 5:56 pm

If it was my compost of purely yard and veggies scraps, I probably wouldn't worry about it.

The organic regulations on compost tea and compost basically is centered around their being the potential for incompletely composted manure contamination and hence the fecal matter pathogens that may accompany them.

However, the bigger distinction may be are you really making compost tea or are you talking compost lechate? Most use the terms interchangeably. http://www.sierra-worm-compost.com/worm-tea.html

If it's leachate and been sitting it may have gone anaerobic.
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Post  Windmere on 5/30/2013, 6:37 pm

No_Such_Reality,

I again appreciate this last post. I have a much better understanding of the concept behind compost tea. I love learning new things. Thanks.
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Post  jazzycat on 6/7/2013, 9:50 pm

@RoOsTeR wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of how companies use the word "natural" to trick people into thinking their product is something it isn't. Sad.


The word Organic is used in much the same way... Wink

Yep. It surely is. Sad, isn't it? Even when things ARE labeled, you can't trust it.
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Post  OhioGardener on 6/21/2020, 11:44 am

A very old thread, but worth reviving I think.  I was at Lowe's today to pick up some Capt Jack's Spinosad spray for my kale, and noticed they have a product bottle labeled as Garden Safe Neem Oil Extract Concentrate. Since I am nearly out of neem oil, I picked up a bottle to look at it.  It is not neem oil at all, it is Neem Oil Extract, with ingredients of:


Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil70%
Other Ingredients30%

Nowhere on that label does it list Azadirachtin, the ingredient in pure neem oil that controls insects.

By contrast, the bottle of Neem Bliss 100% Pure Cold Pressed Neem Seed Oil that I have, which is OMRI Listed for Organic Use, is listed as "High Azadirachtin Content" - in fact, that is the only ingredient.  I'll probably order another bottle of Neem Bliss 100% Neem Oil, and I just put that "Garden Safe" one back on the shelf.



What bothers me is thinking about how many gardeners would pick up that bottle of Garden Safe Neem Oil Extract, and think they were getting the benefits of Neem Oil. Since I do organic gardening, I am glad that the Neem Bliss 100% Oil is OMRI certified for organic gardening.

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Post  markqz on 6/21/2020, 1:08 pm

@OhioGardener wrote:What bothers me is thinking about how many gardeners would pick up that bottle of Garden Safe Neem Oil Extract, and think they were getting the benefits of Neem Oil. Since I do organic gardening, I am glad that the Neem Bliss 100% Oil is OMRI certified for organic gardening.

In the world of "Misery loves company", I also have one of those containers of 70% extract, which I purchased at Home Despot. Later I worked out that that wasn't what I really wanted, and ordered the Bliss. I think the big stores just go for a good price point so they can sell in volume. It's hard to do research when you're just standing there in the aisle.
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Post  Yardslave on 6/25/2020, 7:18 pm

I've used the Home Despot Neem oil for years and I never bothered to differentiate how or what they refer to as the active ingredient.Azadirachtin is another name for Neem Oil. Having said that,I can attest to the HD Neem oil's effectiveness. It's kept the hungry hoards of bugs off my veggies. I bought a bottle of vodka and it's active ingredient (ethanol) wasn't listed either but it works for me.
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