new to SFG, need help plants look bad

Hello,

I hope I have put this post in the correct place.  If not please let me know - I am a new to this forum so my apologies in advance.

I have an outdoor garden which is very small (due to lot and neighborhood restrictions) and have (for years) had a garden in my basement.  Previously I did hydroponics and aeroponics which I finally had to shut down due to an infestation of spider mites which I could not get rid of.  Now after a couple years have passed by and having read through a couple of the square foot gardening books I decided it was time to try again but using Mels mix.  I have very good grow lights from my previous gardens.

My mix is 1/3 compost, 1/3 sphagnum peat moss (which I hydrated cause it was very dry before mixing it) and "super coarse vermiculite" which I believe is what the square foot gardening formula calls for.  I even had the mix analyzed by a lab and have inserted their report after this paragraph.  With the exception that the nitrogen is very low I don't see any big problems with it.  I got the compost from a local firm that sells it and it is supposed to be "good" in that they say it contains lots of stuff.  Your comments would be appreciated on this.





I am attempting to grow 2 different types of tomatoes, cherry and bodacious and basil (because it was very simple and we use a lot of it in cooking).  I started everything from seeds.  I have 2 of the charry tomato plants on the back porch and they are in big "buckets" with vegetable garden dirt (like what you get at lowes or home depot) with a large tray beneath them.  I put 2 gallons of water in the tray every week (water from the bottom).  After a couple days I drain the water that is not used.  Depending on the weather it will drink it up entirely after 1 day.  Here is a picture of these two plants (they are about 2.5 ft tall).  As you can see they are very healthy.






I posted this picture as a comparison to what I am going to show you in the pictures which follow using the previously described mix and in my basement with grow lights.  The tomatoes are each in 7 gallon grow pots and the basil is in a 5 gallon grow pot.  I have much smaller saucers beneath the grow pots but I was trying to do bottom watering like I did with the plants on my back porch (maybe this doesn't work with the mix).  Initially I watered only from the bottom but noticed the mix on top is extremely dry so I started to put some water in from the top.  Specifically, I have been using 3 x 16oz cups of water in the tray and 1x16oz cup from the top each week.  I would like to note that after 1 week the top is very dry but if I run my fingers around the bottom of the grow pots they (the material) feel very wet (about 1-3 inches).  Because of this I skipped watering last week to see if that made any difference but it is probably to soon to know and the plants look about the same.  All of the pictures show the plants after being planted for about 3-4 weeks.  I know the mix is absorbing the water because it is gone after a couple days.  I know it isn't just evaporating because I put an empty tray with 3 cups of water in it and it took about 2 weeks to evaporate.


The height of the cherry in the grow pots is about 7 inches (compared to the 2.5 ft on the back porch).


The leaves (especially the bodacious) are curled up.


There is some yellowing of the leaves on the basil and the dark is probably because my hands were dirty and I was rubbing them to see if I got the nice basil smell (which I did).  

I would  very much appreciate input on anything  as I would be very interested to get this to work.  What follows are the pictures of the plants in the grow pots in the basement.




basil



cherry1



cherry2



bodacious1



bodacious2

Welcome to the forums from Ohio, glad to have you here.  But, I am at a loss as to how to address your issues.  It appears that you are not following the SFG guidelines is either in creating the Mel's Mix, or in using it.  It appears from your description that you used only one local compost for the mixture, not multiple types of compost. What was this compost made from?  Was it primarily plant material, or was is composted wood chips? Was there any manures in it? The soil test report, though it is very nutritionally low, reports only on the immediately available nutrients and not the plant available ones. The soil test shows a high phosphorus level, which prevents plants from uptaking other nutrients such as zinc and iron -- these micronutrient deficiencies often present themselves by yellowing and withering of the garden plants.

Other than that, I am at a loss to address the issues.

It was not my intent to "break the rules".

I don't know what is in the compost (exactly).  I do know I bought it from a local company that provides a service where they collect compostable materials from people that pay for their service (they pick it up each week).  Then they mix it up and age it "for 18 months, turning and screening it to produce a fine, black texture".

I don't have my own compost.  I was hoping that the compost I got would be better than what I could do myself and i could not find something I could buy that had multiple types of different materials.

Can you give me links to an article that has a known good compost recipe?  I suppose I could make a batch of "known good compost" and then keep everything else the same and see if it gave any different results.  This is going to be a long process.

I still am interested to understand about watering (i.e. how often, do you water from the top of bottom, etc).  This is one good thing about hydroponics.  The plants always have exactly the right amount of water - it is never an issue.

Seeking, Welcome to the Forum from California.

If we assume the compost was quality and that the company did not add any fillers like coir, peat moss, sand, perlite, etc., then only explanation I can come up with is that growing outdoors supplies enough sunlight that makes the amount of energy that tomatoes need. I know of people growing dwarf cash crops (not promoted on this Forum) hydroponically in the garage (the West doesn't have basements like the rest of the country) but not fruit bearing plants like tomatoes.

My recommendation is to move a couple of tomatoes outdoors, even at the edge of a shaded area, and see if they don't perk up. Move them into more sun slowly.

As far as watering, straw mulch like E-Z Straw helps prevent surface evaporation and keeps the roots and Mix cooler. Bottom watering can cause anaerobic conditions at the bottom of the containers but it sounds like you are watching the standing water.

You can still use your set up in the basement for low energy plants like lettuce, spinach, dwarf kale, small herbs, etc.

One last comment. Tomatoes can be successfully grown in 5-gallon buckets with straw mulch. Wrapping with aluminum foil or burlap in the summer can help keep the Mix and roots cool.

sanderson - thanks for your reply.  I have a few questions to be sure I understand what you are saying.

"My recommendation is to move a couple of tomatoes outdoors, even at the edge of a shaded area, and see if they don't perk up. Move them into more sun slowly."


That is a real good idea.  That would eliminate the lighting as an issue.  I personally have grown tomatoes in the past.  I had one cherry plant that was about 3 ft x 3 ft x 1-2 ft high because It was over 1 year old and was producing many tomatoes each day.  Unfortunately that plant got wiped out when my basement flooded (ugh).  Two of the lights I have are considered commercial and the third is lower power.  However, I have two meters which can measure PPFD and the lights can provide the PPFD required for flowering and fruiting which is typically considered to be 500-600 (google "what ppfd is required for fruiting plants).

As far as watering, straw mulch like E-Z Straw helps prevent surface evaporation and keeps the roots and Mix cooler. Bottom watering can cause anaerobic conditions at the bottom of the containers but it sounds like you are watching the standing water.


I did mention that the top was very dry.  Is your comment in response to that?


As far as "bottom watering can cause anerobic conditions" part I think you are saying that the water replaces the oxygen which would be bad for the plant if it never dried out so they could get oxygen.  The tray under the grow bag is less than 2 inches high and the amount of water that I put in the tray is therefore less than 2 inches and the 7 gallon bags are at least 1 foot tall (don't remember exactly I have to go measure them).  So if that was happening then only the very bottom roots would be in that condition and one of the benefits of grow bags is they make oxygen more available to the plant.   The standing water is gone after a couple days because it is being absorbed by the mix/plant.  I do the bottom watering with the plants outside (in the picture) and they are thriving.  I would appreciate any comments you might have on any of this.

I believe many of your comments are a result of the fact that you grow outside in a warm environment (is this correct)?  That is why you talk about wrapping to lower temperature and using the straw on top to lower evaporation (is this correct)?

I am wondering how you know when to water.  Do you look at the mix on top and it is dry or do you do it on a schedule or something else?

I would very much appreciate any comments on anything above or something that I am not understanding correctly.  Don't worry about offending me cause I am more interested in learning.

Thanks so much for your response.

Hi SeekingWisdom, what is your soil depth? I don't know if there is a body of research on wicking beds and pots using Mel's Mix, but in regular gardening the growing media in wicking beds shouldn't exceed about 30cm (2.5 foot). Beyond that the capillary forces are not sufficient for water to reach the top of the soil. I know you are not growing in wicking beds and pots, but you are sub-irrigating in the same way and you do mention that the top of your growing media is dry.

Seeking, I shall get back to you on your questions later today. Nappy

Hip2B - The 7 gallon grow bags are 12 inches high and the mix depth is 10 inches (I just measured it).  The top of the mix is very dry looking and feels dry.  If I look at the side of the bag the bottom 2 inches looks darker and feels cooler to the touch because I think it is pretty wet (even though there is no water in the tray).  I stuck my middle finger down from the top into the mix and the tip of my finger started to feel cooler/wetter when it was 4 inches down from the top.  That means the mix is starting to get "wetter" at a depth of 4 inches and is increasingly more wet as you go toward the bottom (10 inches).  Since the bottom 2 inches appear to be pretty wet then from 4 inches (when my finger tip started to feel cooler/wetter) down to 8 inches it gets increasingly more wet due to the wicking action and the bottom 2 inches are much more wet.  I guess the top is drying out due to the fact that I am basically watering from the bottom and have not put as much water in from the top.  I do have a fan constantly running to provide a gentle breeze across the plants at all times which would tend to help evaporation from the top of the mix.  I do not have any mulch as sanderson suggested in her last post.

The peat moss was totally dry when I opened the package.  I read on-line and they suggested using boiling water with a couple drops of dishwashing soap so that is what I did to hydrate the peat moss.  I kept adding water until it was "wet" and then I kept turning it for a couple days so that it wasn't soaked but definitely moist.  When I say the upper mix feels dry I am saying it is dryer then when it was hydrated.  I have read that if the peat moss dries out that it actually repels water.  This is one of the reasons I have asked about how people water their plants.  It would seem that you don't want it to dry out and you don't want the plant to get to much water either.  I have to say I need direction on this and am confused about it. 

Thank you for your reply and please provide any comments you feel might be relevant.

SeekingWisdom wrote:sanderson - thanks for your reply.  I have a few questions to be sure I understand what you are saying.

"My recommendation is to move a couple of tomatoes outdoors, even at the edge of a shaded area, and see if they don't perk up. Move them into more sun slowly."

That is a real good idea.  That would eliminate the lighting as an issue.  . . .However, I have two meters which can measure PPFD and the lights can provide the PPFD required for flowering and fruiting which is typically considered to be 500-600 (google "what ppfd is required for fruiting plants).

SFG is used outdoors.  Exception is starting seeds indoors under lights as simple as fluorescent or LED shop lights, or growing lettuce or herbs.  There are other good sources to help with growing under artificial light.

[size=16]As far as watering, straw mulch like E-Z Straw helps prevent surface evaporation and keeps the roots and Mix cooler. . .

I did mention that the top was very dry.  Is your comment in response to that?

Yes

I believe many of your comments are a result of the fact that you grow outside in a warm environment (is this correct)?  That is why you talk about wrapping to lower temperature and using the straw on top to lower evaporation (is this correct)?

Yes.  
SFG is done outdoors.  Mulch is commonly used in many states.  My summers are very hot and dry.  No rain for months.  Water is metered and outdoor water is limited to 3X week.  After 10 years on this Forum, I have picked up tricks to help my garden survive.  I grow sweet potatoes in large storage totes and invasive herbs in plastic pots.  Mulch is also good in the winter in northern states or anywhere that the beds are put to sleep.  Gardening in my Zone 9, ranges from 100-110*F with no rain for months where I live, to gardening in hot and humid southern and coastal Zone 9.  

I am wondering how you know when to water.  Do you look at the mix on top and it is dry or do you do it on a schedule or something else?

I use the old method of sticking a finger under the straw and into the Mel's Mix.  If it's moist 1-2" below the dry surface, the plants still have water.  I do have a $10 moisture meter in case I can't feel any moisture.  When it's 110*F outside and the plants are full grown and wilting, I also water with the hose.  The rest of the time it is with the dripline system on timers.  I also have overhead 75% shade cloth for the 3 hottest months.

Keep in mind that Mel Bartholomew wanted everyone to have a little fresh produce, whether they only have a balcony or small yard.  Since native soils differ, he came up with the formula for "Mel's Mix" in which 98% of all produce can be grown in just 6".  Hydroponics and grow lights were not part of the general gardening scene, and as such, we are focused on outdoor gardens.

I'd be inclined to agree with Sanderson's assesment. The grow bags do offer oxygen at the root level;however, they also cause increased evaporation around the periphery of the bags. This drying effect causes the plants to auto-root prune and limits root distribution in the pot. Since the mix is being evaporated at the top and sides, this drying effect makes the mix hydrophobic. I believe that the drying effect is reducing the overall migration of water from the bottom to the top of the mix, leaving the plants "feet" wet and the rest desiccated. Buy yourself a cheap moisture meter, and use it to assess the moisture at all depths and see for yourself how depending on soaking from the bottom is risky.  
      Take them outside, water them down from the top, add a generous mulch layer, and use a surfactant in the first few initial waterings. Drying is a big issue with container gardening and from experience I learned that using the "3W's" method works best: Water, Wait, then Water again. Grow boxes get away with bottom watering because they limit the water contacted soil to only a small area at the bottom which reduces the possibility of developing root rot problems.
      Also, I'm afraid your basal looks kind of like it has a fungal disease-septoria leaf spot:(

Some of the most common reasons for vegetable plant leaves to turn yellow or brown and/or curl up is insufficient water, too much heat/sun, and/or not enough room for the roots, especially when they are as young as the ones in the images appear to be.

Most vegetables, especially 'maters, are pretty hardy plants. All six of my 'maters died this spring so I bought three to replace.  All six of the 'dead' plants revived with increased watering and now I have 6' tall 'mater plants and, literally, hundreds of cherry, romano, and beefsteaks threatening to explode into a riot of red!

Nothing wrong with fixing up soil nutrients, but maybe check the basics (water, space, sun) first.

Duckinacup wrote:Nothing wrong with fixing up soil nutrients, but maybe check the basics (water, space, sun) first.

Only if the Mel's Mix has had a chance to mature and is tested at laboratory that can test for dirtless mixes.

sanderson wrote:

Duckinacup wrote:Nothing wrong with fixing up soil nutrients, but maybe check the basics (water, space, sun) first.

Only if the Mel's Mix has had a chance to mature and is tested at laboratory that can test for dirtless mixes.

?

Only use fertilizer if the Mel's Mix has been professionally tested and found lacking. No home test kits.

Just an aside, I plant a portulaca (Moss Rose) from an 8-pack in each corner of my SFGs, to help me keep track of watering situation. I can look out my kitchen window and if they're flowering, the beds have enough water. No flowers, I turn on the soaker hoses for a while.

I am not sure how to help either.  I start seeds under lights in my basement, but bring them up once they are up and thinned—sometimes before they are all thinned!  I also do Aerogarden in the off-seasons with success.  Otherwise, I am SFG.  

My first year I made some mistakes with my MM (Mel’s Mix) that I now know is the reason for some fails that year.  My glaring mistake was not using enough types of compost, and underestimating the peat content in my beds.  My “compost” already had peat in it, so the non-nutritive part of my MM was more than I thought.  This lead to various issues, especially later as the season went on.  

After that year, I made adjustments and added more types of compost—mostly manures like chicken poo, etc.  Made and continues to make a huge difference for me!  

I have always been, and recommend you also compost yourself.  It can count as one of the 5 recommended types of compost!  Also, read Mels’ book, All New Square Foot Gardening, 2nd Edition is what I have, your library should have it!  Very helpful.

Thanks for all the replys - sorry for delay.

sanderson
I am wondering how you did the quote thing in your post.  I looked at the options and didn't see anything obvious.

"I use the old method of sticking a finger under the straw and into the Mel's Mix.  If it's moist 1-2" below the dry surface, the plants still have water."

What is the total depth of your mix is (i.e. 1-2 inches check for moist then how much more is below it)?  I am also wondering what it is on top of (i.e. clay, sand, dirt, something else) to get an idea of drainage.

I took one of the plants outside the same night of my first post after your suggestion.  I am also changing my watering to be top down and focusing on trying to keep the top 2 inches wet (i.e. water when it gets dry like you do).  I'm going to water my plants in the basement the same way and I have increased the light to the flower/fruiting level as well.  I'll post back on this in the near future when there is something to say.

Yardslave
I checked more closely (the basil) after your comment and I think you are correct.  I had touched it with dirty hands and thought it just needed to be wiped off.  But I tried to clean them off and most of the dark spots on the leaves were dried up patches.  I pruned it and thinned them out.  I have increased the light and changed the watering and they look better already.

Duckinacup
I am tending to agree with your statement "check the basics".  I think the problem is related to me not understanding proper watering with the mix.  I also increased the light.

AntB
Is this (portulaca) what you are talking about?
https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/ground-cover-seed/moss-rose/moss-rose-yellow.html

Scorpio Rising
I have the "All new square foot gardening" book.  For me trying to figure out how to get the compost was the biggest difficulty.  I'm still not sure the stuff I have is good or not.  It is difficult for me to compost myself because of my yard and homeowners association rules (it took me months of paperwork to get my small outdoor garden approved - ugh).

Your Mel's Mix itself should be 6" deep.

For deeper beds, the bottom should be filled either with sand or top soil.  Fluffing your peat moss before measuring it is crucial, as is thoroughly wetting the Mix 1" -2" at a time as it's dumped into your bed(s).

You know what I do, SeekingWisdom?  I compost my kitchen stuff—coffees grounds and filters, and whatever else I use in the kitchen….I use a bucket in my garage.  For many years, I just used Rodale’s “pile”.  It can be small….

My kids got me a righteous upright bunker thingy a few years ago for Mother’s Day!  But totally uneccessary.

SeekingWisdom wrote:Thanks for all the replys - sorry for delay.

sanderson
I am wondering how you did the quote thing in your post.  I looked at the options and didn't see anything obvious.

Hit the quote button.  Notice that the quoted post starts with "bracket, the word quote, followed by the end bracket".  The end of the quoted post ends with "bracket, forward slash, the word quote, followed by the end bracket".  I can't type it out or it

will do this

You can do it multiple times, selecting what you want to respond to. Hit preview to see if it's working.

"I use the old method of sticking a finger under the straw and into the Mel's Mix.  If it's moist 1-2" below the dry surface, the plants still have water."

What is the total depth of your mix is (i.e. 1-2 inches check for moist then how much more is below it)?  I am also wondering what it is on top of (i.e. clay, sand, dirt, something else) to get an idea of drainage.

My total depth of Mel's Mix is 6-7".  My beds are called table top beds because they are up in the air.  Their bottoms are 3/4" plywood with some drain holes.

I am also changing my watering to be top down and focusing on trying to keep the top 2 inches wet (i.e. water when it gets dry like you do). 

Okay.

SeekingWisdom wrote:...

Duckinacup
I am tending to agree with your statement "check the basics".  I think the problem is related to me not understanding proper watering with the mix.  I also increased the light.

...

Most successful SFG's are a result of experience, so if in doubt about watering, perhaps an inexpensive soil moisture meter from Amazon would help. I bought one this year because I put in a new raised bed and, because it was such a dry spring, was unsure how much to water the seeds/seedlings/new plants at the start of the planting season.

We are in drought here in St Louis, MO, so watching the plants that need the most water can also help. Now that my veggies are mature and beginning to bear fruit, I watch the 'mater leaves and when they begin to curl I water each plant with a watering wand for 30 -60 seconds. Takes only a few minutes and ensuring the wand is at the base of each plant very little water is wasted. Waiting for them to become a bit thirsty doesn't appear to have stressed them too much, if at all.

I over-planted this year, but that's another story:

thanks!

sanderson
I am wondering with your 6-7 inch total depth and then the plywood, have you ever grown tomatoes with that (just wondering if that is enough depth)?

Is your plywood painted or protected in any way?  Wondering how long it will last before rotting.

all
A number of suggestions about a moisture meter.  I do have one.  It is the simple type (no battery - the two different types of metal in the rod induce current flow and measure conductance)?  Here is a picture.


Is this the type of meter you use or something different?

Duckinacup
Nice picture - as long as they are happy the more the better!  It sometimes gets so humid here that when they are that "packed together" I end up with all kinds of problems - ugh.

Scorpio Rising
How long does it take to produce compost the way you do it?  Do you use just a single container?  How do you get the "finished" compost separated from the "unfinished" (assuming 1 container and you are just adding new stuff all the time)?

Interesting question!  How long…so, using the old Rodale pile version, I would say 4 months at the earliest.  Now, I am not sure I pay attention to this.  But back when I did, I would say 3-4 months would render compost.  You will know when you dig in and it looks like soil!  But it isn’t….lol

[quote="SeekingWisdom"]

thanks!

You got it!

sanderson
I am wondering with your 6-7 inch total depth and then the plywood, have you ever grown tomatoes with that (just wondering if that is enough depth)?

Yes, I am growing 10 patio tomatoes and 8 indeterminates and determinates right now. The patios grow 1 per square foot. But, because the beds have plywood bottoms, I give the det/indet one 2 squares. In reality, the roots of each plant go everywhere in the beds because I keep the MM moist throughout.

Is your plywood painted or protected in any way?  Wondering how long it will last before rotting.

Not protected. The beds are lined with durable weed fabric to keep the MM from washing out the drain holes but I don't think that counts as protection. I have found that a solid piece of 3/4" plywood lasts 6-8 years.
. . .

Is this the type of meter you use or something different?

Yes. I keep it wiped clean and dry between using.