Pesticide use?

sanderson wrote:for all of you in the path of the freezing rain (TX to NE), drive carefully and stay safe, warm and dry. 

That's not me, thank goodness.   I wouldn't know what to do or how to behave.  Like you, T-shirts and gardening jeans for me until Tuesday.  Well, maybe with a work shirt over the top.

Bay window tour, all are in MM -
I'm wondering if I'm the only person in New England right now with vine ripening tomatoes growing in their window: 

The basil is still growing but since I don't use it much it's also getting a bit limp from lack of watering:

The parsley is doing well & I love it in my smoothies:
The stevia next to it is actually 5 feet tall with seeds right now and will be cut down soon and hung on the back of a door to dry.

Romaine lettuce and Tuscan kale:
These are the buggy ones.  I sprayed with pyrethrin and it seems to have helped but I'm sure they'll be back.  I'll harvest them by end of January if not sooner.

OK, heading out to prune the spireas and burning bushes, spread some more wood chips, and maybe water the greens in the SFG with some nitrogen.  I'm hoping to get a huge growth spurt over the next few days for Mondays greens harvest.
  

Stay safe and warm, fellow New Englanders.

CC

ACK!!  

CC, be very careful about letting your cat near the plants you've sprayed with the pyrethrin.  Cats are especially sensitive to that family of chemicals & your pretty little kitty could get sick.

Here's an article: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3892/

but do some research of your own.  I, personally don't let it in the house after a friend lost 2 of her cats to pyrethrin toxicity because she used it to treat ticks in her yard & didn't know it could kill the cats.

mollyhespra wrote:ACK!!  

CC, be very careful about letting your cat near the plants you've sprayed with the pyrethrin.  Cats are especially sensitive to that family of chemicals & your pretty little kitty could get sick.

Here's an article: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3892/

but do some research of your own.  I, personally don't let it in the house after a friend lost 2 of her cats to pyrethrin toxicity because she used it to treat ticks in her yard & didn't know it could kill the cats.

+1 natural or organic does not equal safe.

OH. MY. GOSH!    

I had no idea about pyrethins and cats.  darn!  I wonder how long it takes for any symptoms to show up.  I used it about 3 days ago thru the whole window, but haven't seen any unusual behavior in Lilly.  Fortunately there's not a lot of room in there for her so she hasn't been hanging out there.

Thanks, folks, for the heads up and the lesson.  The stuff is heading for the trash now.  Jiminy crickets...

CC

It doesn't need to go in the trash as it is a good pesticide, but it is always wise to read and follow label directions and know what it is you are using it for. Don't beat yourself up. It is handy stuff. Really good on those wicked red asiatic lily beetles.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/pesticides/infosheets/pyrethrin.pdf

http://www.southernag.com/docs/labels_msds/Neem-pt.pdf

Well done, Camp.  I'm sure your bees appreciated the visit and care.

Btw, there's not a thing on that pyrethrin spary label about cats in the warning, which was UNDER a peel off sticker that removes the instructions completely: 


Front:

  It ticks me off!  They'll be receiving a sternly worded note from me fersure.

CC

CC,  I've learned about cats and their super sensitivity the hard way.  I've had 1-2-3 cats all of my life.  At this age I only have Sweetie.  I'm doing everything right by her after a lifetime of painful learning.  And remember, I was a health inspector with lots of biology and chemical education.

The chemicals my cats were exposed to over the years would be considered animal cruelty except no one thought twice about the chemicals and cats.  Cat flea dips!  Spray finishes from my husband's wood shop section of the 3-car garage.  The fumes easily seeped under the door into the area when the cats slept at night.  Motor oils and fluids in the garage. Yard treatments for ants and fleas, weeds and pre-emergents.  Kidney shutdown and skin cancers were the most common causes of death.

I wouldn't stress too much about one light treatment indoors.  Personally, I would move the plants outside in the sun to break down the pyrethrin.  Use warm water and soap to clean the surfaces in that area.  Clean rinse and towel dry.  Let the sunlight shine on the area to break down any pyrethrin residues.  Then replace plants.

Here are two links:  There are others but the first should be credible.

www.napcc.aspca.org    Listed in the vetinfo.com topic
www.vetinfo.com  I read this one

PS This is way off topic and probably should have it's own topic.

Thanks for moving the topic, Camp. It will hopefully get to more people than hidden in our little NE sub-forum.

As Sanderson already wrote, it's amazing how many toxins we inadvertently expose our pets to. Just because it's "safe" for humans it's not necessary "safe" for our dogs, cats, other wildlife, etc.

Which reminds me to ask you, Camp: do you use it in your garden? I thought it was toxic to bees too. Or is that Permethrin? I can never keep the two separate in my head.

I have not ever used pyrethrin in my garden, but I hear it is very effective for the dreaded asian lily beetle.

I have learned to live with certain pests and promote a healthy balanced environment where the predator species will thrive to keep the pest species in balance. When I do intervene I may use insecticidal soap (aphids) or hand pick (cabbage worm/ horn worm) or use barriers like tulle to keep the cabbage moths at bay. I also have used the baking soda and copper sprays for foliar disease prevention or treatment. When I do use a product in the garden I find myself repeatedly reading the label and watching the activity of life in the garden for clues of proper timing in use or effectiveness of use. In my world oftentimes a little goes a long way. I have ramped up the pesticide treatment of my bee colonies when there is an increase in mite numbers. BUT I watch for the signs that there is a problem developing, whether in the garden or the hives, and treat accordingly and incrementally.

Oh, and I have used a glyphosate on poisonivy.

This is a very important topic, IMO.

Does anyone know of any other harmful 'natural' and/or 'organic' pesticides out there that we should be aware of?

CC

CapeCoddess wrote:This is a very important topic, IMO.  

Does anyone know of any other harmful 'natural' and/or 'organic' pesticides out there that we should be aware of?

CC

They should all be suspect. By their very nature, whether they are organic or artificially manufactured, all pesticides are meant to kill or deter pests be they insects, fungus, disease, birds or animals.
There is a great sticky in the Pests forum that has a link to pesticide database with very good detailed information.
https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t6026-pesticide-database

BUMP!  

This issue came up again and for the sake of organization, I'm going to cut & paste the relevant posts into this response (thanks for the hint, Sanderson).  

WARNING: LONG.

CapeCoddess wrote:
(snip)
Do you know at what temp aphids will die?  Oh, I just looked it up and it's less than 14 degrees.  That room never gets that cold and besides, it would kill the stumplings first.
I still have that pyrethrum spray.  I could use it in the bedroom as Lilly can't get in there.

mollyhespra wrote:CC are the aphids showing up only on the turnips?  Why not try some DE on the aphids first before bringing out the pyrethrum?  I've got no-cat zones in my house too but you know how they are; if they *know* they're not allowed in a particular area it becomes all the more tempting.  The DE shouldn't hurt Miss Lilly, while the pyrethrum could...

sanderson wrote:Or spray the pyrethrum outdoor and let everything completely dry before bringing them back under the lights?  They could spend a day or two in the closed bedroom?

CapeCoddess wrote:
(snip)
OH, and I did use DE on the turnip stumplings a couple times but the aphids come back, just not in the original numbers.  That helped make them manageable enough to squish now.   I'll banish the plants to the bedroom and spray with the pyrithrum. Spraying them outside in this cold might kill them.

CC

mollyhespra wrote:Just remember, CC, that the pyrethrum "sticks" to textiles and will hang around for quite a few washings. as such, mind the overspray getting on your clothes or skin (Miss Lilly may not get in that bedroom, but she'll likely get on you) or any other textiles in there.  Also be careful about not inhaling it.

Actually, if the DE helped to get the aphids' numbers down, why not just wait until it's "warmer" (above freezing) and do the P. spray outside?   Honestly, I wouldn't risk having it in the house at all, it's so toxic to cats.  DH has his Permethrin-soaked hiking stuff in the garage and he changes in and out of them in there so as not not risk it coming into contact with the furballs.

CapeCoddess wrote:"pyrethrum 'sticks' to textiles"

I did not know this.     I'll do it outside.  Wed is supposed to be a bit warmer.

CC

littlesapphire wrote:(snip)
I've never used pyrethrum, but I have used Permathrin on some hiking clothes so I wouldn't have to spray my body with deet (yuck).  I remember reading that permathrin is highly toxic to cats when it's wet, but once it's dry, it's perfectly safe.  
(snip)

mollyhespra wrote:Can you post where you read that permethrin is safe to cats when dry?  

All the reading/research I've ever done (I have cats and DH uses permethrin to treat his hiking clothes) state that it's toxic/potentially lethal to cats, period.  I'm at work right now, but I can dig up the articles for you when I get home this evening.  If you use the stuff and have cats it's important to be fully informed.

You may be thinking about contact with dog or human skin, where it's allegedly perfectly safe.

littlesapphire wrote:Molly, I got my info from the back of the permathrin bottle.  I did a quick search on google and came up with many sites that say it's safe once dry.  Here's one that seems pretty legit.  I care deeply about my cats though, so I make double sure to never have the liquid permathrin in the house, and I keep the sprayed clothing in a bag away from the cats.

OK, so here's what I don't understand: I read the article you cited, Julie, and I was good all the way down to the last line, reading all the warnings, etc. when it just ends with the statement, "...Once the product has dried it is no longer a danger to cats or children." without any citation to any research to support the veracity of that statement.

I think we all agree that it's toxic and potentially lethal to cats, right?  The issue under debate is whether it is at any point rendered safe by being dry.

I don't understand what difference can it possibly make if the permethrin is in dry form or suspended in a liquid medium, which will simply evaporate leaving behind...dry permethrin...which is toxic to cats.

Sanderson, you've got much more experience with chemicals than I do.  Can you weigh in on this issue?

Poor cats just can't handle it like dogs and humans.    I am not an expert in pesticides.  My experience / training has been in the application of pesticides against pest or harmful insects.  The "relative" safety of different products was only a side note or downplayed.  Here is a comparison of 3 commonly used pesticides.  So far, I have only used Neem.  I would probably choose Sevin (carbaryl) over permethrin.  My cat eats bean, borage and zinnia leaves, so I have to be very careful even with the neem, i.e. night or predawn spraying, thorough drying.
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

"What happens to permethrin in the environment?

If permethrin gets into the soil, it is broken down by microorganisms. Sunlight may also break down permethrin on the soil surface and on the surface of water. Permethrin does not mix well with water. When permethrin gets into surface water like lakes or streams, it sticks very strongly to sediment and can stay there for more than a year. Since permethrin sticks to sediment and does not mix well with water, it won't usually contaminate groundwater. Permethrin does not evaporate very easily when it is applied to surfaces. Permethrin was applied indoors near a window in an experiment where it was exposed to daylight. After 20 days, 60% of the permethrin that was applied was still on the surface.

If permethrin is applied to plants, it may stay on the leaves for between 1 and 3 weeks. Scientists applied permethrin to soil and then planted sugar beets, wheat, lettuce and cotton in the soil. Scientists found trace amounts of the permethrin residue in the edible parts of the plants at 30 and 120 days after planting. Trace amounts of permethrin have been found in foods including bananas, collard greens, squash and watermelon. However, less than 1% of the more than 1700 food samples tested had detectable levels of permethrin."
"Cats are more sensitive to permethrin than dogs or people because it takes their bodies a long time to break it down."
"Permethrin is highly toxic to bees and other beneficial insects."
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html

"What happens to neem oil in the environment?

Azadirachtin, a major component of neem oil, is rapidly broken down. Microbes and light break down the pesticide in soil, water and on plants. The half-life of azadirachtin in soil ranges from 3 - 44 days. In water, the half-life ranges from 48 minutes to 4 days. It also rapidly breaks down on plant leaves; the half-life if 1 - 2.5 days. The remaining components of neem oil are broken down by microbes in most soil and water environments."

"It is important to remember that insects must eat the treated plant to be killed. Therefore, bees and other pollinators are not likely to be harmed."
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/carbgen.pdf

"What happens to carbaryl (Sevin) outdoors?
Soil:  Depending upon conditions, carbaryl has a half life ranging from 4 to 72 days in soil. Carbaryl breaks down faster in sandy, flooded, or well aerated soils.
Plants: Carbaryl has an average half -life of 3.2 days on plant leaves.
Water: Carbaryl does not dissolve well in water and sticks to soil. However, carbaryl is widely used and can last a long time under the right conditions
Cats are typically more sensitive to the effects of carbaryl than dogs
Carbaryl is very high in toxicity to honey bees and can harm beneficial insects."

I'm looking into a product to help rid my poor trees of gypsy moth caterpillars. The product contains Deltamethrin.  The word is so similar to permethrin and pyrethrum that it triggered my memory of this very important thread.  

Does anyone know anything about deltamethrin that food garden and critter owners need to be made aware of?

CC

Hi folks..just thought I'd mention some valuable info....In the book Teaming with Nutrients a section explains how plants build up there own state of defenses. For instance.. group of pests focus on say, a blooming healthy  anyplant. Now the plant is subjected to stress, Plant starts building up immunity in that at the proper plant time it sends out signals for a specific predator, one that would target the pest affecting that plant. The article doesn't state how long this process takes and we humans aren't programmed to wait.  So while folks are flooding plants with all kinds of stuff to eliminate these pests in a hurry, that plant is totally confused now, it doesn't know what to do...A healthy plant has the power to hold back pests that come into contact with it...Aside from being exposed to many variations of tempertures I will be treating my plants as if they are infants...That book has some amazing facts in it.... By the way...the plant called in the predators, they completed their work and left...

As with all pesticides, there are factors to seriously consider before using.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/DeltaGen.html

What are some signs and symptoms from a brief exposure to deltamethrin?

When deltamethrin gets on the skin, it can cause skin sensations like tingling, itching, burning, or numbness at that spot. These sensations usually go away within 48 hours. Deltamethrin can be mildly irritating if it gets in the eye. If enough deltamethrin is breathed in, it can cause headaches and dizziness. Although not common, individuals who have ingested large amounts of deltamethrin have experienced nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and muscle twitches. Deltamethrin is low in toxicity when it is touched or breathed in and is low to moderately toxic if eaten.

Deltamethrin can affect dogs and cats if they eat, breathe, or touch it. It can cause vomiting, drooling, in-coordination, and muscle tremors if they eat enough of it. If deltamethrin gets on their skin, it can sometimes cause skin sensations that result in biting, scratching, or licking of the exposed area.

Can deltamethrin affect birds, fish, or other wildlife?

Deltamethrin is moderately to highly toxic to fish under laboratory conditions. However, when products are used according to the label, deltamethrin is less likely to affect fish. This is because it is more likely to be bound to the sediment.

Deltamethrin is practically non-toxic to birds when they eat it.

Deltamethrin is highly toxic to honeybees under laboratory conditions. It did not harm bees in field studies, and formulated products actually had a repellant effect that lasted for 2-3 hours.

Earthworms were not affected when soil was treated with deltamethrin.

ewwww...nasty.  Thanks, Sanderson.

My gypsy moth caterpillars are mostly all dead now.  Apparently there is a fungus that was released around New England over a century ago to combat them.  It lays dormant until it gets moisture. Since we had a very wet spring this year, first time in 5 yrs, I guess it's come alive and done its job.

Hopefully the moth population was lowered enough to stop future infestations.  My fingers are crossed.

Entomophaga maimaiga, A Fungal Pathogen of Gypsy Moth

http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf308.html

There's also mention of a virus in that article, NPV (nuclearpoly-hedrosis virus).  Since my caterpillar bodies are just hanging on the trees, this may be what got them.  Either way, the poop rain has stopped.

CapeCoddess wrote:my caterpillar bodies are just hanging on the trees . . . the poop rain has stopped.

I would say that's a nice thing. Right?