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Crop rotation

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Post  AvaDGardner 4/13/2012, 12:13 am

Bea, how do you work it in with trellis vs no trellis plants?
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Post  quiltbea 4/13/2012, 10:42 am

@Ava.......Those north rows get changed only every year, from tomatoes to cukes or peas or beans and then switched the 2nd year. I just try to enrich them with a bit more compost than usual.
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Post  AvaDGardner 4/13/2012, 6:13 pm

Cool. I'll rotate my squares accordingly!
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Post  Turan 4/13/2012, 10:25 pm

quiltbea wrote:@Ava.......Those north rows get changed only every year, from tomatoes to cukes or peas or beans and then switched the 2nd year. I just try to enrich them with a bit more compost than usual.

That is the routine I worked out in my greenhouse. Tomatoes, then cukes and then basil and yardlong beans. More correctly, that is my intent and let us see how this third year of it goes. I fear I am rotating the tomatoes too fast though, so I really push the compost.
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Post  Triciasgarden 7/6/2012, 10:24 pm

Is there someone somewhere that could give me suggestions on what to plant after harvesting the current square(s). I have a companion planting chart which helps some for what to plant at the same time. I know some plants leave certain nutrients that the next plant would love to use. Also, I am thinking that there are some plants that you should never plant after others. That thinking, or any of this, may be wrong however and I won't be offended if someone tells me I am wrong and people do it nicely here!

I have nine 4 x 6s in rows of threes (three beds per row) for crop rotation. Am I over thinking or confusing myself? With crop rotation you don't plant the same crop in the same place more often than three years. Well if I am planting a second crop for that year, do I plant the same thing (which doesn't seem right) so it rotates every three years or something else so it is rotating every third planting or more?
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Post  Triciasgarden 7/6/2012, 11:06 pm

I was looking for this thread and couldn't find it and Rooster knew where to put me so here I am! It looks like my questions have been answered. I just need to read this thread.
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Post  Turan 7/6/2012, 11:16 pm

Your question about rotations with in the year is not quite answered though and is very good, especially if one gardened year round. Our winter break makes such a clear marker. But I think the answer is that it is most important to not follow nightshade family in succession no matter what. But beyond that it seems to work ok to succession plant with in the season the same thing in the same place. I do try to go from leafy greens to roots and vice versa. Maybe some one can tell us if there is a problem with following spring broccoli with fall broccoli?

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Post  RoOsTeR 7/6/2012, 11:32 pm

There are lots of topics on crop rotation here in the forum. Don't forget about the search feature located just below the latest topics list.

https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/search?search_keywords=crop+rotation&typerecherche=interne&show_results=topics

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Post  RoOsTeR 7/7/2012, 11:25 am

Here's another great thread on rotation:
https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t9742-crop-rotation-involving-nightshades?highlight=crop+rotation

Lol, I'm still a lazy gardener and still subscribe to Mel's method of crop rotation as laid out in the ANSFG book on page 144. I swear this book was written just for me Razz

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Post  yolos 7/8/2012, 2:29 am

I don't know about other parts of the county, but here in Georgia we get a lot of diseases on our vegetables. This year, even with new raised beds, new MM, growing my own tomatoes and cucumbers from seeds, and no overhead watering, I have had diseases on my tomatoes, cucumbers and potatoes. affraid I even planted the cucumbers in two different spots in my yard and both areas have diseased cucumber vines. I have looked online to try to identify the diseases but haven't been able to figure it out yet. Guess I will have to make another trip to my county extension office.
Here is a good site for crop rotation.
http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/McNabRotations.htm
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Post  cpl100 7/8/2012, 3:22 pm

Turan wrote:Your question about rotations with in the year is not quite answered though and is very good, especially if one gardened year round. Our winter break makes such a clear marker. But I think the answer is that it is most important to not follow nightshade family in succession no matter what. But beyond that it seems to work ok to succession plant with in the season the same thing in the same place. I do try to go from leafy greens to roots and vice versa. Maybe some one can tell us if there is a problem with following spring broccoli with fall broccoli?

I was just reading a book last night which said that you should never plant any of the brassica crops more often than every three years in the same spot. Not sure if it applies with SFG but thought I'd mention it on the off-chance that I might know something useful.
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Post  johnp 1/5/2013, 8:01 am

I know that we are supposed to plant a new and different crop when we replant. I do however, have two (2x4) tomato boxes with the angled trellis on each side and three others (4x4) that are also just for tomatos. So what do others do from year to year? These boxes are three years old this spring.Thanks, I'm brand new at this forum.
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Post  llama momma 1/5/2013, 9:34 am

Johnp-

According to the book, Carrots love Tomatoes, it says, " unlike most other vegetables, toms prefer to grow in the same place year after year." (pg 26) Then it says this is fine unless you have a disease problem, in which case plant the toms in a different place.

In my opinion if you decide to call your extension service for their opinion please share your findings. The book was printed in 1998 and 1975 so I wonder if the current thinking has stayed the same re: prefers to grow in same place..

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Post  camprn 1/5/2013, 10:15 am

I am moving my tomatoes next season because of blight. Not sure how much difference that will make but they have been in the same bed for 3 years.

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Post  quiltbea 1/5/2013, 11:42 am

I like to switch every year but my tall fence poles are up in the same place and those are the only places I can grow my tomatoes and my sugar snap peas.

I put up string trellis for the peas and just use tomato string from bottom to top for the tomatoes. So I switch those back and forth each year. That way the soil is as least getting a single rotation and the pea roots enrich the soil greatly.

If I want to have more tomatoes, I put the determinates in pots and leave the sprawling inderminates for stringing at the fence poles. When one has limitations, we have to find a way to make it work.
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Post  gwennifer 1/5/2013, 1:13 pm

Don't know about tomatoes, but I had planted peas in the same place three times in a row and the third time they didn't perform well at all. It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis. Haven't figured out what to do about that besides either not planting them at all this year or changing out the Mel's mix instead.
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Post  Turan 1/5/2013, 1:53 pm

I have often heard to rotate any of the solanacae (tomato, peppers, eggplant, potatoes) on a 3 year rotation and never with each other. Rotation is part of how to avoid trouble.

Here is a link to the UC Davis IPM information on this. They have a graph showing what to rotate with and how long in response to specific diseases etc. http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r783900611.html

With all that said.... tomatoes in some climates are a perennial, and some how that works. I have heard of gardeners planting tomatoes in the same place every year and being very careful to add lots of compost and it worked. I tried that and had rapid decline in yield and lots of yellowing leaves so now I use a 2 year rotation alternating tomatoes with basil, beans, cucumbers.

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Post  Turan 1/5/2013, 2:06 pm

gwennifer wrote: It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis.

Have you watched the shade cast to the north on your beds? You are almost as far north as me. The sun is so high in the sky in the summer that my east west running beds cast no shade to the north. I can have my trellised peas/ beans etc any place in a bed with out it bothering other plantings.

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Post  Kelejan 1/5/2013, 3:53 pm

gwennifer wrote:Don't know about tomatoes, but I had planted peas in the same place three times in a row and the third time they didn't perform well at all. It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis. Haven't figured out what to do about that besides either not planting them at all this year or changing out the Mel's mix instead.
I would suggest changing out the MM as it will only involve one row of squares then you can keep you trellis in the same place. I am going to that that this year with my pea and bean rows
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Post  camprn 1/5/2013, 4:56 pm

Kelejan wrote:
gwennifer wrote:Don't know about tomatoes, but I had planted peas in the same place three times in a row and the third time they didn't perform well at all. It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis. Haven't figured out what to do about that besides either not planting them at all this year or changing out the Mel's mix instead.
I would suggest changing out the MM as it will only involve one row of squares then you can keep you trellis in the same place. I am going to that that this year with my pea and bean rows
Kelejan, I am curious what your rational is for changing out the Mel's Mix.

I personally would add lots of fresh homemade compost, instead of the trowel full or two per square. I plant my peas and beans on the north side of my boxes. They continue to do well as long as I am very generous with adding compost between crops.

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Post  gwennifer 1/6/2013, 12:02 am

Turan wrote:Have you watched the shade cast to the north on your beds? You are almost as far north as me. The sun is so high in the sky in the summer that my east west running beds cast no shade to the north. I can have my trellised peas/ beans etc any place in a bed with out it bothering other plantings.

Hmmmm..... Interesting. I do know the sun gets quite a bit more centered across my yard come high summer, but I grow the peas spring and fall. I know I had a problem with just my 6" carrot high rise casting shade into a corner of one square. I don't know. Gardening on such a small scale can be a teensy bit problematic sometimes.

Actually everyone, instead of changing out the Mel's Mix on one side, I should just take the grid off and stir the whole box up really well, adding a bucket or two of fresh compost. That would have the same effect as planting the peas somewhere else in the box. Didn't do that before since I always had something growing somewhere, but was planning on a fresh start this spring anyhow.
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Post  cheyannarach 1/6/2013, 3:55 am

gwennifer wrote:Don't know about tomatoes, but I had planted peas in the same place three times in a row and the third time they didn't perform well at all. It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis. Haven't figured out what to do about that besides either not planting them at all this year or changing out the Mel's mix instead.

Or just build another box Wink
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Post  Kelejan 1/6/2013, 10:05 am

camprn wrote:
Kelejan wrote:
gwennifer wrote:Don't know about tomatoes, but I had planted peas in the same place three times in a row and the third time they didn't perform well at all. It is difficult when the trellis needs to be on the north side of the box and I need to plant them along the trellis. Haven't figured out what to do about that besides either not planting them at all this year or changing out the Mel's mix instead.
I would suggest changing out the MM as it will only involve one row of squares then you can keep you trellis in the same place. I am going to that that this year with my pea and bean rows
Kelejan, I am curious what your rational is for changing out the Mel's Mix.

I personally would add lots of fresh homemade compost, instead of the trowel full or two per square. I plant my peas and beans on the north side of my boxes. They continue to do well as long as I am very generous with adding compost between crops.
My rationale? I feel that as we are recommended to plant in a different spot each time, it is because any particular plant disease remains in that spot, so if you completely change the MM, then the diseases are no longer there so you can replant the same crop in the same place. Same thing as Gwennifer's quote about changing out the mix. Hope it makes sense.
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Post  johnp 1/6/2013, 1:08 pm

Thank you all for the different answers. Since it seems that almost all my beds have eggplant or peppers in them that moving my tomatoes might not work. My beds have settled a lot so yesterday I got a load of three different composts and mixed with comp. manure. I bought 5 bags of vermiculite and two bricks of peat. and started mixing. Several (6) beds are not frozen so I moved the old mix to the sides and threw the new mix in with some additional manure and topped off the beds. Hope this works.
I just found this forum yesterday. I should have joined two years ago and maybe the squash bugs would not have won the war last summer. I will post some pictures as soon as my wife shows me how. We live in a small town 40 miles south of Colo. Springs Co.
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Post  quiltbea 1/6/2013, 1:55 pm

johnp....Welcome to the forum. I'm sure that being with our group would help you with some of your questions. Being in the desert, I can't help much since I'm in the north snow country.

As for squash bugs, I have to tell you that unless you cover them with light row cover early in their growth, the bugs will invade. Due to health reasons, I pretty much ignored my community garden rows last year. I had all I could do to keep my home beds going. I was amazed when I started to water a zucchini and right out of the center of that plant at least a hundred squash bugs came scuttling up the stalks and across the leaves. I hadn't covered them. That zucchini was a goner in a week.
So cover them against the bugs. Uncover them for pollinating which you can do by hand.
You can bet my row cover will be handy from the beginning of the season this year.
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I stick several wire clothes hangers, formed into half circles, around my plants and hold the cover in place with spring clothes pins. Pour some soil on the ends touching the ground to keep bugs from going in underneath.
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