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Trellises - help me locate mine, please?

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Post  Soose 4/12/2022, 3:39 am

I need advice on trellises.  (As well as what to plant where.) 

The photo in the next post was taken rooftop over a week ago.  Late afternoon. (Thus shade encroaches on the garden.  We will get more than 6 hrs sunlight even in winter, especially as house and garden are tilted 23degrees off the North-South axis. I'm in the northern end of Alabama.  It does get hot and humid here; mostly Summers mid-to-high 90F's, winters down into 20F's, but can get colder and hotter on occasion.  Our Spring Last Frost date is April 20;  Late October First Frost Date.  Weeds are a terrible problem here. )

The drawing in the next post is not to scale (NTS) as far as aisles and such.  But we've left wide enough aisles (4 ft and 3ft) that I wonder if the trellises from adjacent beds will shade each other. 

I'm not sure how many trellises we need but I am thinking we need to maximize them to increase our room for vining plants.

I wonder if anyone has ever put a shorter trellis on the north side of a SFG bed,  where there's also another trellis reaching up on the western side --  an arched trellis, reaching out over the aisle to the west of a bed?  That may be crazy.  Can anyone see what I'm talking about?

To decide about trellises, it might help to know what we want to grow...  I'll append that if it helps.

I already have cut 10 "trellis-sized" pieces of cattle panel, one for each of 10 totes.   We were going to use them inside the tote bottoms for the water reservoir. Then we decided to use something else.  So I have this set of 10 "trellises" I can use that match the narrow 39" ends (on the north side of each tote). They would be 54" higher than the beds to start, and the MM isn't going to come to the top of the tote edges, so maybe consider them 60" or 5ft tall trellises. 

But I really like the idea of arches between beds, too, so we can pick beans from above.  I can buy cattle panels for arches or we can extend those pieces.   

I can still change the aisles to make an arched cattle panel or some other arch  fit two totes -- the totes are movable still.
But will be fixed in place once we add water and soil, too heavy to think of moving.

Thanks for any help.  Expect me to be confused, lol.

Soose

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We will have a lot of beans/peas if possible, vining I hope.  We will have mostly vining but probably a few bush tomatoes. ( Honestly I've been random in what plants I bought this year.  And don't have experience.) 

We are mostly plant-based.  We eat a lot of raw salads with cabbages, kales, greens, brussel sprouts, carrots, beets, colored peppers.  Use lots of onions and beans/lentils, in soups.  We make raw salsa dressings of tomatoes/cukes/scallions/lime.  I dehydrate veg for storage.  I hope to pickle some of these veggies. We use a lot of greens but my greens (lettuces, kales, and such) are currently on 12 wicking boxes on the porch and I don't have to move them to this garden. They're already in green house covers and chicken wire cages for squirrel-thwarting. 

We think we'll have to enclose the tote SFG, with a screened hardware cloth, because of squirrels. We don't have to worry about deer.  But there's a field rat around, thus the raised piers to prevent nice closed in "runs" under the totes. 

We don't think we'll have a real critter problem with the 5 totes we have allocated for potato grow bags (for now), so we aren't planning to enclose them. We can cover them while they're small.  They will have a horizontal "trellis" over the whole run to prevent the potatoes being damaged in wind; a cattle panel just fits over 5 totes horizontally. 

I have no clue what I'm going to do with melons.  Maybe start a bed out in the field, not enclosed, for things that don't fit. I do want to grow cantelopes, honeydew, and watermelons.  [ Next year we might look at Three Sisters out in the field in a straw bale garden, to increase our staples.]
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Post  Soose 4/12/2022, 3:40 am

Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Iso_vi11
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Spring11
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Post  sanderson 4/12/2022, 4:57 am

Soose, I spent 30 minutes drawing trellises and ideas on your plot plan, but when I tried to Save As with a different name, it disappeared! Tomorrow.

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Post  Soose 4/22/2022, 8:27 am

I am getting down to the wire, I am going to have to decide where I can locate trellises.
I can just put a section of cattle panel on the north side of each of my totes...  but
I'd really like to include some arches for harvesting overhead.  Ideas?  

If I want to maximize trellis space...  what are my options given the layout I posted?

Sun -- even in winter, the shade won't encroach on the beds until past 4pm, due to the
orientation of the garden.  So I have plenty of sun, both morning and afternoon.
Today, sunrise was about 6:15am.
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Post  markqz 4/22/2022, 2:18 pm

Not a trellis expert, but I'll go out on a wing.

Assuming you're at 34.2/86.8, and using this site, and then assuming that you want to use the sun height between the longest day of the year and late October (Oct 20th), I find an angle of 68 degrees for August 20th. At that noon-time angle, with a 4 foot gap, you could have a ten foot trellis. But your beds are raised, so you have to subtract whatever height that is. I'm guessing 3ft, so that makes a max of 7 foot trellae. However, they might be casting some shadow at earlier and later times of the day. And of course the closer you get to October 20th. That would require more analysis -- although the shadows would be longer, they would also be more east/west.

I found this site that offers shadow analysis, but it looked like you could spend days trying to understand it.
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Post  Soose 4/22/2022, 5:49 pm

Ty Markqz. Oodles. I did sorta look at sun shadow type sites (and got lost) but am also relying on my dh's knowledge of where the sun is in the sky at different times of the year. I will show him your post.

So has anyone ever put the trellises on both the north sides of SFG boxes, and added a trellis on the east or west? (Those would be the foot of my archways. Because I thought I understood from another post that the orientation of an arch between beds should be feet of arch on west and east, passage under north to south.) Is this just totally of the wall?

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Post  OhioGardener 4/22/2022, 6:11 pm

Soose wrote: Because I thought I understood from another post that the orientation of an arch between beds should be feet of arch on west and east, passage under north to  south.)  Is this just totally of the wall? 

I may be off the wall, but it is the way my arbor is set up. The beds run north to south, and the cattle panel arbor is between them.  Has worked great for me!

Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Tunnel13

Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Arbor_27

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Post  sanderson 4/22/2022, 6:21 pm

Having 4'x4' beds opens up more options that 4'x8' beds.  Single trellises on the north side.  Double trellises on the north side.  Or West sides.  Large summer squashes in the S corners.  Cattle panel arch for pole beans, peas, winter squash, gords. The cattle panel is oriented like OG does, the west side of one bed to the east side of its neighbor.

You can use the trellis method in the book to you drive a piece of rebar into the ground and slip the PVC or EMC trellis over them.  This will be done right outside of the tote and they can be moved later if you want.  A block or 2"x4' acting as a stabilizing "foot".  A hole drilled large enough to fit the rebar but too small for the PVC or EMC.  Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Trelli33

I looked at the list of veggies you want to plant.  Some are good for now, and others for fall/winter.  Look online for a planting schedule from the Master Gardener or Ag Commissioner.

This is the first year.  Keep a journal.  Figure out how much of what you need to plant to eat fresh and put up.  This is the year of learning.
 
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Plot_p14

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Post  Soose 4/22/2022, 8:47 pm

Thank you all for the photos and info -- and ty Sanderson for the drawing specific to my garden!  This gives me a place to start.  Mucho thanks!

Can I put a second arch just south of the first?  On the same walkway?  A huge part of my problem this year is that I am such a new gardener for every type of plant except tomatoes/peppers, and greens like lettuces/kale.  It's definitely going to be a learning year for me and mine.

I went scrambling for my SFG books and the term "double trellis."  (I don't have the 3rd edition. I do have the original, 2nd, and answer book.)  Then a search here.  I can see I need to read all the posts I can about trellises now that I'm getting close...  I can see there are a LOT more options for trellises and locations than I'd ever imagined.  I'm really only familiar with the original trellis.

Is this what you're calling a "double trellis" - in your own post, Sanderson?  For beans and such?  https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t18292-trellis#218256   Not really two frames but one frame and double netting or twine?
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Post  markqz 4/22/2022, 8:52 pm

Recalculate! Recalculate!

I realized that I should have added the height of the SFG's, not subtracted. Also, taking into account the 23 degree angle results in a slightly higher trellis. In total, it puts the max height for August 20th at 13 feet.

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Post  Soose 4/22/2022, 10:07 pm

markqz wrote:Recalculate! Recalculate!

I realized that I should have added the height of the SFG's, not subtracted. Also, taking into account the 23 degree angle results in a slightly higher trellis. In total, it puts the max height for August 20th at 13 feet.

Love the Dr. Who reference.  

Now this geometry I might get my head around.  TY, Markqz.  Thirteen feet would be an awfully tall trellis!   (Understand that's max.
Will still have to wait for my dh to come home and explain the rest with the sun to me. )

I am calculating, given a 4ft wide walkway, and a 16ft cattle panel arched over it (if it forms a perfect 4ft diam arch overhead)...
Height of arch 95inches.  62" above the top of the totes.  (The totes are approximately 33" at top lip, above ground level... 
20" tote, 5" pallet, and 8" concrete block under.)

That's if we start the cattle panel attached at the bottom of the tote's surrounding cage, instead of at ground level.  Gain 13" height on each side.  So the cattle panel is raised up some.  There's a good strong metal cage to attach something to.  I can't imagine it going anywhere in high winds, with all the water and MM weighing it down. 

My drawing is crude.  I never got the hang of Sketch-up.  Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Dimens10
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Post  sanderson 4/23/2022, 3:54 am

By double trellis I mean 2 trellises sandwiching something growing.
PVC trellis:
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Trelli34

EMC trellis:
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Beans_15

Triple trellis:
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Trelli35

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Post  Soose 4/23/2022, 8:34 am

markqz wrote:In total, it puts the max height for August 20th at 13 feet.

Ok, Markqz, I was brain dead last night.  I was thinking about arches...



You're talking about the shadow cast by a 13ft (max) tall  "north-side-of-the-bed" trellis,  onto the bed North of it.  (Across a 4ft east-west aisle. ) Got it. Good to know there's not going to be a problem there.  I should be able to repeat your  exercise with my husbands help, to see how many hours of sun the bed on the western side of an arch will get.  His head will be clearer on the geometry than mine right now.



I don't know how tall our "screen house" around the garden is going to end up.  I might only be able to fit an 8 ft tall trellis, or we might put a hoop house over the top to gain height, but not sure how much. We wanted to stay behind that fence.  I was reading Mel Bartholomew in one of the books about going vertical, and there are advantages I had not thought of, so that will influence that choice now. 

And TY again OhioGardener for your beautiful photos of your arched trellis.  It seems we should be able to use arches on the north-South aisles, and get enough sun from morning and afternoon on both sides of the arch. 

Given we're rotated 23 degrees, sun loading on the west should actually be more until late afternoon than if we were in an orthogonal compass layout. We've cut down some trees and yesterday, the shade did not encroach on the south side of the totes.  The sun should hit the Eastern side earlier and move up and over to see the Western side a bit sooner.  When I asked before, my husband has told me that the Western shade pattern should not change that much seasonally from Spring to Summer, but that the sun will rise sooner and provide more morning hours of sunlight.  I'm glad he observes such patterns.
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Post  Soose 4/23/2022, 8:53 am

sanderson wrote:By double trellis I mean 2 trellises sandwiching something growing.
PVC trellis:
EMC trellis:
Triple trellis:
 
Sanderson, ty for the beautiful photos of trellises. 

I didn't know about doubling/tripling up on trellises. (Other than for bush tomatoes.)  I will spend an evening reading threads on trellises here before we put ours in or buy materials. 

To begin with, though, I've already got ten portions of cattle panel, cut to the northern side of these totes, by mistake - or serendipitously. I was going to use them as the top of the water reservoirs and then had second thoughts; we used something else. 

So those should either make good North-side trellises, could easily be doubled or tripled, or I was thinking could make a big tomato trellis box if we also added some horizontal supports.

We can attach onto the corner of cages and attach the panel sections onto those.  They should be very strong, though only 54" tall -- the width of the cattle panel -- for the grid part.  Might gain height by adjusting where we attach the panels to taller posts.  I'll check out the costs of pipes/conduit vs. T-posts or angle iron for posts.  (We have a junk store that has promised me some bed frames with broken feet for $5 each in a few days.) 

In the books, a stronger garden netting for trellises is talked about.   I'll search threads to see if anyone has comments about a preferred long-lasting brand.  (I keep running into quality issues, previously good product gone down the tubes.)

Thanks for all the help!
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Post  sanderson 4/23/2022, 3:06 pm

Soose wrote:
sanderson wrote:By double trellis I mean 2 trellises sandwiching something growing.
PVC trellis:
EMC trellis:
Triple trellis:

. . . In the books, a stronger garden netting for trellises is talked about.   I'll search threads to see if anyone has comments about a preferred long-lasting brand.  (I keep running into quality issues, previously good product gone down the tubes.)Thanks for all the help!
The Vigoro trellis netting is very strong.  I leave most of them up year around, year after year.  Heavy winter squash, beans, peas, cucumbers, luffa gourd, small cantaloupe. The only time they break is when I accidentally cut them!  Razz  The white zip ties do get brittle and have to be replaced every 2-3 years.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Viagrow-5-ft-x-15-ft-Garden-Trellis-Netting-VTN5X15/203124376

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Post  OhioGardener 4/23/2022, 3:32 pm

sanderson wrote: The white zip ties do get brittle and have to be replaced every 2-3 years.

Look for UV-resistant Zip Ties. They last much longer without getting brittle.  Lowe's calls them "Outdoor Cable Ties".

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Post  sanderson 4/23/2022, 4:08 pm

OhioGardener wrote:
sanderson wrote: The white zip ties do get brittle and have to be replaced every 2-3 years.

Look for UV-resistant Zip Ties. They last much longer without getting brittle.  Lowe's calls them "Outdoor Cable Ties".
Thank you, thank you! I've sent husband to look for the gray ones and neither Lowes nor HD carry them. These are great.

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Post  Soose 4/24/2022, 9:01 pm

I have four beds ready for grids and trellises. (And have told my husband that I'd rather have those
beds finished more completely and ready for planting,  than have 9 beds in progress but unplantable. 

So I'm at the trellis and grid stage.

For Northern single trellises:

I have decided for now that I will use two cedar fence boards (or parts of, or pallet pieces, we have some old ones),
attached to each outside back corner on the northern side.
I can attach a section of cattle panel to the boards, pretty sure,
and retain its 54" height.  Should be stable enough.

Whether I can reach that high on the trellis is another question. 87".
Better too high for now than not enough. 

If I have to for now, I'll just use all of these, one per bed on the northern side, keeping it simple.
Can still add the arches or double trellises, etc., as the season progresses.

I don't have the experience yet to imagine how tall each type of plant will grow.
And I do not have all the data on the varieties of plants I've bought or had bought for me.
(Will try to read some... look back at my books and posts here.)

For grids...  looking for something to salvage.  UV protected.  That won't take too much time.
Beds are around 37 or 38" x 47" inside? 
-----

Since I'm here, ty Sanderson for the recommendation on Vigoro trellis netting. (Don't think the forum notifies when I like a post.)
Our local stores don't have it but will ship to store.  I'll look around first.

And ty OhioGardener for the find on UV resistant outdoor cable ties.  I will look.  (Drat, could have today and forgot them.)  For the insides of my totes, I am just using Harbor Freight's nylon ties -- they have them on sale again this weekend, 100 for 99c, 8 inch.  We are using a good many down inside the beds to keep things lined up until the weight of MM fixes the innards in place.  We'll likely need more, and I had not thought about any exposed ties going bad in a couple of years.
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Post  sanderson 4/25/2022, 2:36 am

Soose, yes I saw your like.  This is what I use now for grids that sit directly on the Mel's Mix.  I used the wood moulding for 5 years year around (Zone 9A) and replaced with the white PVC when they wore out.  Machine screws and nuts for the intersections.  You can almost fold them up.

For the size of beds, you will have a ~3' x ~4' grid or 12 squares.  The squares will be just a tad irregular - 11 3/4" x ~12 1/2".  No problem.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Royal-Mouldings-6578-1-4-in-x-3-4-in-x-8-ft-PVC-Composite-White-Screen-Molding-0657808049/202089998

Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Grids_18

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Post  Soose 4/25/2022, 7:50 am

Exactly what I was looking at last night...
( I've used a lot of PVC trim. Was hoping I had some scraps of 1x to rip, but easier to buy screen moulding -- or the lattice, ripped. )

At Lowe's they're cheaper, marked interior use only (no UV protection), surely that must be a typo. Meant for screened porch/doors exterior. I see your link at Home Depot says exterior.

I was wondering about riveting the intersections. The finish on rivets, think it might be aluminum. I have only riveted one item many decades ago... But it can't be hard. Might be quick.

Love the feel of Mel's Mix, and Grids and trellises are rather beautiful! Getting exciting!
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Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Empty UV resistant Zip Ties

Post  Soose 4/26/2022, 3:51 pm

I was having my better half look last night for the "outdoor cable ties" at Lowe's while he was there.  Forget why he did not find any or bring any home. 

He told me, when I added them to his list, that the black ties we bought at Harbor Freight should be "as UV resistant as you can get" or something like that.  He would understand the Chemistry or Physics or whatever. (I frequently get such backwards.  If they're black, they're absorbing almost all the light, right? Doesn't that mean they would absorb UV?  See, I get things backwards.)

So I checked the pkg of the newer ones he just bought. I can report the black zip ties at Harbor Freight are labeled on the back of the pkg as UV resistant.


On Sale right now, 99c for 8 inch ones thru May 5th?  (That might be an insider's club price?)
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Post  markqz 4/26/2022, 4:49 pm

Soose wrote:He told me, when I added them to his list, that the black ties we bought at Harbor Freight should be "as UV resistant as you can get" or something like that.  He would understand the Chemistry or Physics or whatever. (I frequently get such backwards.  If they're black, they're absorbing almost all the light, right? Doesn't that mean they would absorb UV?  See, I get things backwards.)
The black ones absorb and turn into heat, mostly on the outside "skin". That protects the interior. I can tell you though, from experience, that not even the black zip ties will last for more than about two years in daily sun. Possibly one could spay paint them for added protection, or cover them with reflective tape.

For real fun, get a UV flashlight (useful for hunting tomato worms, BTW), and go out to your garden at night. Everything plastic glows!
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Post  Mikesgardn 4/27/2022, 8:48 pm

Instead of zip ties, I discovered an alternative that lasts forever.  14 gage solid copper electrical wire (solid, not stranded).  Cut it with a wire cutter and use it just like a twist tie.  You can buy it by the foot at the big box hardware stores, or on a roll.  Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Wire10
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Post  yolos 4/27/2022, 9:25 pm

I also use that wire when I am setting up my cattle panel trellises.  I use the wire to attach the cattle panels to the 8 foot tall EMT posts.  If I am using trellis netting, then I will use the Zip ties when attaching the trellis netting to the EMT posts.

My garden is set up mostly east-west.  I have one dedicated bed 2' x 8' that I use for my Rattlesnake Pole Beans.  I originally set up a trellis on both 8' sides and also a trellis down the middle.  It worked fantastic but was so hard to  harvest.  Now I just use two trellises - one on each side of the bed.  Here is me harvesting the bed when I had 3 trellises.
Trellises - help me locate mine, please? Rattle15
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Post  Soose 4/27/2022, 10:19 pm

yolos wrote:My garden is set up mostly east-west.  I have one dedicated bed 2' x 8' that I use for my Rattlesnake Pole Beans.  I originally set up a trellis on both 8' sides and also a trellis down the middle.  It worked fantastic but was so hard to  harvest.  Now I just use two trellises - one on each side of the bed.  Here is me harvesting the bed when I had 3 trellises.

Yolos, Off topic for this thread but I've gotta know...  about your lovely photo of a beans patch. 
What type yield do you see from that many pole beans, please? (16 squares, I guess 8 plants per square = 128 plants.  That's a lot of beans!)
Do you stagger the plantings or put them all in at the same time?  You can tell I'm a novice...

Had you ever thought of putting them in an arch?
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