Senseless Banter...

Not to mention San Francisco!  At least some of the "flats" there had back yards.

donnainzone10 wrote:As a 40-year veteran of Southern California, I can assure you that Marc isn't exaggerating.  

It's wonderful to be back in Oregon now.  It's peaceful, quiet, and no matter what the locals say, there's little traffic.  

It's all I can do not to roll my eyes when people here in my small Oregon town complain of terrible traffic and high crime rates.

I also despise those tiny building lots so popular these days.  For one thing, where's the space (and sunlight) to have a garden?  Each house shades the next.  Front yards are about the size of a postage stamp.  It's that way in newer developments, even here.  What are they thinking?  Or ARE they thinking?  

Developers try so hard to squeeze value into a tiny space that they wind up squeezing all the value out of it until they wind up with no value there at all! Be it small lots, small homes, small yards, down to tiny rooms. I've checked out places that have bedrooms in which you can't walk around the side of a double bed without closing the door. Who would want to live like that? Better to turn two of those bedrooms into a single bedroom (which still wouldn't be very big at all) and sell the place as a two-bedroom place rather than a three-bedroom place. *Ahem!* That is NOT a bedroom! It's a closet with a bed in it.

They do the same thing with kitchens a lot. Sure you've got a stove and fridge, but where are you supposed to put the pots? The dishes? Any food, should you be wealthy enough to afford food? Sheesh!

boffer wrote:
Me too.  It makes me wonder if developers realized that the airlines' modern business model is the way to go:  cramming more people into smaller spaces equals bigger profits!

I wonder if these tiny lots will be the last opportunity to achieve the American dream of owning one's home.  Will the  next step  be large developments full of attached townhouse style buildings?

I think the "tiny home" and especially the mobile version of the "tiny home" movement is going to grow tremendously. People build real and sometimes really beautiful homes that are incredibly small, and mounting them on wheels means they classify as mobile so they get around a lot of housing code restrictions. They can get by on almost any lot.

When I was 11, to complete a math assignment, I measured the house I grew up in and drew its floor plan.

That process made me realize why Mom couldn't stand how the house was laid out, so I decided to try to improve upon it, on paper.

I didn't stop drawing floor plans until I was well into my 20s and still have my "portfolio."  This hobby gave me an appreciation for space, storage, and traffic patterns.  Also, I've always believed that each lot should have space for a garden.

I think the tiny mobile homes are wonderfully creative and ingenious, but I don't understand the functionality available for long term living.    

Primarily, no storage.  Unless one lives in a very moderate climate where one can create outdoor living spaces, or unless one has access to storage or work spaces like a garage or shop, there's little room for money saving hobbies like sewing or canning, or saving money by stocking up on sale items.  Heck, there's not even room for a professional's business wardrobe.

Yet, there are families living in them!  Whew!  It will be interesting to follow the trend.

Very much so. I don't see how the trend could not keep going like gangbusters, because the economy is not strong and rent keeps rising regardless. Jobs change and are often short-term too, so setting down roots and taking up a 30-year mortgage is far less practical(and even likely) than it used to be.

I think to live that way, you have to be willing to pare down your lifestyle and most of all the idea that more is better. I know I've learned to lead a far less cluttered life since I started buying almost all my books on kindle ... books used to own my space to the point where my place looked like a book warehouse. And I've decided never to collect anything ever again ... it's a huge space-gobbler, the stuff is always vulnerable to damage or theft, and it's almost always a waste of money because what's bought retail must be sold wholesale.

I'm a packrat by nature, though, so trying to live in one of those tiny homes would be as challenging for me as almost anyone. I especially like, if I find something like some top-notch sweaters on sale, to buy more than the one I need right now ... I'll buy a couple or more because I know sooner or later I'll have to buy another sweater or two whether I like it or not, so I might as well get a really great one or two now than settle for less at a higher price later. It makes plenty of sense in its own way but that would be very hard to do if space were ridiculously tight.

And don't even get me started on kitchen gadgets ...

Marc Iverson wrote:
I'm a packrat by nature, though, so trying to live in one of those tiny homes would be as challenging for me as almost anyone.  I especially like, if I find something like some top-notch sweaters on sale, to buy more than the one I need right now ... I'll buy a couple or more because I know sooner or later I'll have to buy another sweater or two whether I like it or not, so I might as well get a really great one or two now than settle for less at a higher price later.  It makes plenty of sense in its own way but that would be very hard to do if space were ridiculously tight.
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I'm right there with you, always have to have backups. And don't get me started on toilet paper. This house is 1100 square feet but there's also a garage. My apartment in Miami is 610. Now that's a problem, but I still find space for extra toilet paper, even if it's in the backseat of my car.

CapeCoddess wrote:...I'm right there with you, always have to have backups. And don't get me started on toilet paper. This house is 1100 square feet but there's also a garage. My apartment in Miami is 610. Now that's a problem, but I still find space for extra toilet paper, even if it's in the backseat of my car.

Women!  

When we were dating, the first time my wife came to my house for dinner, she brought a bottle of wine.  The second time she came to my house for dinner, she brought a six pack of toilet paper!    Honest!

I was a single guy, rarely at home, and didn't worry about a stash.  Although there was enough TP for our first dinner, she wasn't comfortable with my storage stash.  Now that we have space, she makes sure there's always a Costco size package (30 rolls) or two or three, in storage.

Well, it's either TP or shoes. At least TP we can share with ya.

In case of emergency, I think it's a great idea to keep extra TP on hand!

In fact, I recently read that, in dire circumstances, items such as TP, coffee, and sugar could be used for bartering purposes and could be quite valuable.

Toilet Paper?  Reminds me of passing though London, England, and having to "Spend a Penny".

There was a lady at the entrance doling out TP as there was a shortage of it due to some strike, the usual reason why we had shortages. We each had one sheet.  Can you imagine using one sheet now?  'For some reason now when I travel I always make sure I have a few extra sheets with me; just in case.

The other shortage I remember was sugar.  That was when I cut my DH down to one spoonful and I learned to like tea without it.

As soon as a shortage begins, everyone stocks up like crazy.

The other reason for a shortage, and this happened only a few months ago, was an increase in printer cartridges of 12% across the board. Brother, Canon, Epson, HP etc. Even I was not able to get the black cartridges I needed as I did not have the spare cash to stock up so I could not use my new printer for a couple of weeks and when I finally got my first two, I had to let a valued customer have theirs first otherwise I would have lost them to STAPLES.

Well folks. we don't worry about toilet paper.  We are very concerned about the number of trees it takes to wipe our butts and therefore we use bidets.  Refreshing water and we each have several of our own different colored towels.  Yes, it does take some getting used to but you might consider the possibility.  Dr. Mercola sells bidets cheap. And they are easy to install.

A folk singer called Mike Segar ( or a similar name ) used to sing a song about " Little boxes " some time around  the late 1960's .. see if you can find it and then smile at his accuracy.

 I've just calculated the floor size of our whole bungalow it comes out at just over 1,100 sq feet ..that did surprise me but it really does have three decent sized double bedrooms each of which has a built in wardrobe that I put in .

 We don't have " TV dinners " in this house .... ever,  for we have a large kitchen diner affair where 10 adults could sit round a 50 year  old " G plan " teak extending dining table & chairs set if needs be & there is still plenty of room for the kitchen and Alison's in the house large bespoke office desk set up typists chair .

 TP..ha ha ..
My big Sis who is a teacher at a small out in the sticks school saw a for sale sign in the large village shop , for some high quality soft strong layered fluffed up posh bum fodder for £3.50 ( $6 USD ) a pack .
So she purchased five packs .. darn good bargain getting 100 rolls with 80 sheets per roll  for £ 17.50 ( $ 20 USD or so )
 When she got to the till and joined a large queue of parents & pupils she nearly died when the assistant wanted over £100 ( $150 USD ) for the five packs of loo roll and a loaf of bread .

She was still spitting feathers at it all two days later .. because she suddenly realised at the till that the pack referred to in the sale was only for pack of two rolls , but was too embarrassed to say " Whoops I've misread the advert , I only want five , two pack rolls" .

 To rub salt in this immensely sore wound  she found that the rolls were far cheaper elsewhere  the next week end whilst shopping in the nearest city  which was only nine miles for her village school & home .

Taking a break from making shade sails, two 8' wide and 11 1/2' long from patio roof to fence!!  Shallow back yard area.  Yet, I at least have room for a garden, piece meal though it is.  The dog that barked 8' from our bedroom is now too sick to be outside except for nature calls.  I have a few bees and wanna-bees, veggies,flowers, dying lawns  and the neighborhood is mainly owner occupied and quiet.  People take walks and in my area, watch out for each other.  We have been here for almost 20 years and really lucked out.  Yep, really lucked out.

The land, permits, and amenities such as driveway width-cost are so expensive in CA.  Each new neighborhood needs infrastructure such as water, cable, electricity, water and sewer, sidewalks, street lights, and the streets.  The only way to trim the cost is to make the plots smaller and the secondary bedrooms smaller.  Everyone wants a larger master bedroom and bath, indoor laundry, some cathedral ceilings and 3 car garage.

The trade-off is living too close.  I think, psychologically, that the more space between neighbors, the better you can be neighbors.  Like the saying, fences made good neighbors.  The only forced social sharing that works great is within a family unit.  When a family has a safe and unique "home area", they can have fun reaching out to the neighbors.  Back to figuring out how to use my new sewing machine.  Installing grommets will be a learning experience today.

I see lots of you have responded since I started this reply.  I am also a toilet paper collector. I also like backup laundry supplies, soaps and cleaners, bleach, shampoo, paper towels, and cat food.

Ah, yes.  Cat food!  Although I feed my felines mostly high-quality wet food, I like to keep a small stock of the dry stuff, just in case.  

And at least several gallons of water.  I'm also working on building up a small supply of emergency food.  Just in case of climate or other emergencies, such as civil unrest or a major quake along the Cascadia Fault, which is off the coast of the PNW and believed capable of M 9.0.  In such a situation, transportation routes would be heavily damaged, and delivery of food and other staples would be delayed or non-existent. And there could be hungry refugees from the Coast or Willamette Valley, which would both suffer extreme damage and loss of life.

plantoid wrote:A folk singer called Mike Segar ( or a similar name ) used to sing a song about " Little boxes " some time around  the late 1960's .. see if you can find it and then smile at his accuracy...

It's good to see that you're still able to access the oldest part of your hard drive! I had forgotten that song until you mentioned; it's perfect.

Here's Pete Seeger's cover of the original by folk singer Malvina Reynolds.

Here's another version with more interesting video.

You wipe your butt with a towel? And re-use it? That is beyond my ability to tolerate. I don't even want to think about it.

I carry extra toilet paper in my car, and have sometimes carried an extra roll in my suitcase when traveling. Not just for back-up, but because the heavy perfumes in many toilet papers make me sneeze. Even some kleenex/facial tissues have various oils and whatnot in them. No matter whether I use the paper product up top or down below, I prefer it unscented, so I keep my own handy.

I do the same thing with soap, because some has so much moisturizer in it that I feel greasier coming out of the shower than I did going in.

Marc Iverson wrote:You wipe your butt with a towel?  And re-use it?  That is beyond my ability to tolerate.  I don't even want to think about it.
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I am sure one does launder them between use, and don't forget,  a bidet cleans first before the cloth is used just to dry off. 

I must admit I have never used a bidet yet so I am assuming that is what happens.

Thanks for responding for me, Kelejan. Of course the towels are washed between uses and if your do it right there should be no sh*t on the towel ever.  Something new to wrap your head around.  Don't use that towel for such purpose however.  Too small.

Yes.  Dear Malvina Reynolds.  Was trying to remember her name when this came up.,  I had the pleasure of hearing that wonderful soul in a tiny Berkeley California dive way back when.  Thanks for all the videos.

Boffer, I recently remembered that song but I couldn't remember the order of the colors except for yellow. A modern version would be a brown one, and a beige one, tan one, and a caramel one."

Gee, I've missed a lot here...

Houses close together - we call them cluster communities.  (Sometimes we add another word after cluster, but since this is mixed company... )  My main concern is fire.  If one catches, they'll all go up!

Emergency stashes - we always keep a roll of TP & paper towels in the vehicles "just in case."  We also have about 4 months of long-term storage food on hand at the moment.  Part of our harvest goes for dehydrating & long-term storage.  In the winter, we have "go bags" that stay in the cars as well.  They contain food, water, shelter, more TP, clothing, etc. in case we have to abandon a vehicle.

AtlantaMarie, if everyone copied what you have done, that would make any disaster far less traumatic for everyone.

Like you I dehydrate a portion of my food as it lasts such a long time and loses very little nutrition, takes the least space, a lot can be eaten without cooking etc. etc.

I believe most people would be hard pressed to last a week without going to the supermarket.

[size=undefined] Malvina and her husband were on their way from where they lived in Berkeley, through San Francisco and down the peninsula to La Honda where she was to sing at a meeting of the Friends’ Committee on Legislation (not the PTA, as Pete Seeger says in the documentary about Malvina, “Love It Like a Fool”). As she drove through Daly City, she said “Bud, take the wheel. I feel a song coming on.”[/size]

Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky tacky,¹
Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one 
And a blue one and a yellow one,
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.