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Hello Guest!
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There's lots to learn here by reading as a guest. However, if you become a member (it's free, ad free and spam-free) you'll have access to our large vermiculite databases, our seed exchange spreadsheets, Mel's Mix calculator, and many more members' pictures in the Gallery. Enjoy.

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Keeping bees

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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  Kelejan 9/21/2013, 7:08 pm

Wonderful LLM. Synergy between you. I bet he is happy to know you are close ny and his bees do not have to work so hard.
Now, I wonder if there are any beekeepers near me? I intend to start planting bee friendly plants next year anyway. I do have clover in my lawn. Pesticide free of course.
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Post  llama momma 9/23/2013, 5:37 pm

Kelejan

Here's hoping for many bee visits to your place next season.  okay 

I didn't notice till this year how much abundant clover seemed to appear around my boxes but not the entire lawn.  thinking   For whatever reason I'm glad it helped to bring the little buzzers.  This was the first summer in 3 years I felt the need to watch where I was stepping so as not to disturb them.  Clover, borage, and sunflowers were very busy plants.
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  CindiLou 9/27/2013, 12:19 am

CapeCoddess wrote:David, can you keep the hive in the greenhouse for the winter?  Can you tell I know nothing about this topic??? Embarassed 

I think our annoying yet beneficial insects are yellow jackets, especially since they were eating a worm this morning: 


Or are they wasps?

CC
No wasps in our neck of the woods allowed!

My daughter and her two little sons and other daughter was mowing the yard. Yellow jackets in the landscape timber around the kennel! ER visit for all! Now I have a 7 and 4 yr old terrified of wasps!
"But NaNa's bees are nice" oh heck :sillyme:at least it didn't turn them against honeybees! They know they will sting but we have told them over and over "only if you mess with them" "cause they die after they sting you and they don't want to die". Seems to have worked.

Oldest boy say a wasp in a bag of pop cans on the porch this week and told Mommy that PaPa needs to get them cans put up rofl...smart kid...cans now gone!

Boys now say only NaNa's bees are allowed...oh my
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  Pollinator 9/27/2013, 9:13 am

CindiLou wrote:No wasps in our neck of the woods allowed!
Show this to your kids: http://goodbugpage.com/wonderful_wasps1.htm
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  CapeCoddess 10/4/2013, 1:15 pm

Well, this is disturbing.  These guys eat honeybees...Sad 

"...the Asian giant hornet is the largest in the world and has a reputation as a relentless hunter that stalks its prey — normally honeybees — in coordinated attacks."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101086173

CC
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  camprn 10/4/2013, 2:28 pm

CapeCoddess wrote:Well, this is disturbing.  These guys eat honeybees...Sad 

"...the Asian giant hornet is the largest in the world and has a reputation as a relentless hunter that stalks its prey — normally honeybees — in coordinated attacks."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101086173

CC
Yes, this can be disturbing, but this is not news. The european hornet is also a bit of a danger to the domestic honey bee.

____________________________

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Haven't been around much.

Post  CindiLou 11/5/2013, 3:48 pm

Been pretty quiet. I have had an issue with my City Council. I just did NOT feel up to talking yet.

Middle of October I got a citation stating my bees were not allowed under "nuisance" ordinance as a danger to the public. I was NOT in a good mood! After all my research and talking to people NOW they say I can't have them! After a full summer!

So I request a hearing. And wait for a date, and wait. Week yesterday (Oct 28) After two weeks I go to City Hall. 'Why do I not have a hearing date?" "oh you do, it is Nov 4" Remember I have been THREE WEEKS worrying!

So last Friday I FINALLY get a letter from city lawyer. States the date (finally a notice! Of three days!) and that if found a "nuisance" the city will take immediate action!

Crap! In other words if I lose I get a FIVE HUNDRED DOLLAR FINE IMMEDIATELY! And they get someone to clear out my bees AND I GET CHARGED FOR IT!

So yesterday morning my ladies go on vacation! Out to the country 15 miles away! They can't get them there lol..

And as being attitudinal, I set up my empty nuc box in the same spot my hive was! If they want to give me a ticket for that I get to win in court rofl...jerks!

7pm..off to hearing I go. Sit and chat, after all, went to school, hubby works with, or kids had as teacher, or a cousin with all council members Rofl..I felt it was important to smooze!

First words, What do you want to say? (*&*&^*& ..no I did NOT say it rofl...

First sentence I said "First I want to know what you definition as "danger to public is"? Silence....uh oh..not good I thought! So I start my spiel. Honeybees don't attack like yellow jackets (we have lots of those!) or bumble bees. They won't chase you down! THEY DEFEND..

Next issue ...stings..has anyone been stung in your yard this year? NO, and on I go with the " hubby 10ft away in sandals, shorts, tank top while I tear hive down completely for Aug. inspection. WITH NO STINGS!

Got their attention!

To make a long nerve racking story short, I WON! Ok..I won stage one! Bees are NOT to be considered under "nuisance" ordinance Keeping bees - Page 19 3170584802 

They are now looking into other city ordinances! And they asked if I would be interested in giving some info! OH yea Oh yea! rock on 

NOT going to forget that they could still ban, but looking good!

But my ladies will be on vacation in the country till something is definite.
I will keep my nuc box up so they will not think I am giving up!rofl

Oh and the "complaint" that someone did that started it? One of the council was really ticked the person did NOT show up! She kept at it as a "spite complaint"! She was very verbal about it! Maybe that helped!

Chief of police said there was one other incident that they made them get rid of the bees. But they never asked for a hearing so it never went before the council so no "precedent" was set. Score one!
CindiLou
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  llama momma 11/5/2013, 4:07 pm

Congratulations on Round 1, CindiLou!
 I feel it in my bones that this will turn out in your favor. Sometimes even when you Know you are right, you have to fight and educate the others to set things straight and get the rules changed. You are paving the way for others. It won't surprise me later on if some council members become very supportive honey customers.
  I dueled with a priest and the issue went up before the local Bishop and I won. This paved the way for other parents in that situation -- so CindyLou Best Wishes and I bet it's going to work out just fine. Please keep us posted.
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  plantoid 11/5/2013, 4:23 pm

That is brilliant.


 Do some lateral thinking about using six foot high light wooden fence panels to surround the hives so you have enough working space and hinge one to enter the enclosure . the bees will have to come out the hive fly up six foot and then make their way to the forage.
 

Never site bee hives on public land.

Never site then in or by  a gate way that has hedges on each side as the bees will tend to fly along the hedge line  on windy days when they tend to fly low to the ground to save energy .
Same with buildings ..never site them between to buildings that are close together for the same reasons.

 Do a lot of mugging up on swarm control,  not just by removing the new queen cells or snuffing out the queen  but by halving the brood box in to two new ones  or take a neuc's worth of frames out the brood box to start a new hive , to replicate what an issuing swarm would represent in a working hive  .

 When I did Women's institute talks I took drawn frames in a brood box , capped stores  and also several undrawn ones in a neuc box . I then was able to show them how bee control etc.was done inside their meeting halls . Turning up to such a meeting  in a full bee suit with bare hands is also very very effective if you don't have the hood over your head.

 Bees are only be a nuisance if you let them be one.

 This does have an amazing effect when you are explaining about bees to numpties.....
Collect 18 drone honey bees and put them in a small  lidded jar with a few strands of straw in it for them to walk over /stand on , pick them out with tweezers to show the judge & jury folk what bees look like and that you don't get stung when you put your fingers in the jar.
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  CindiLou 11/5/2013, 6:12 pm

plantoid wrote:That is brilliant.


 Do some lateral thinking about using six foot high light wooden fence panels to surround the hives so you have enough working space and hinge one to enter the enclosure . the bees will have to come out the hive fly up six foot and then make their way to the forage.
 

Never site bee hives on public land.

Never site then in or by  a gate way that has hedges on each side as the bees will tend to fly along the hedge line  on windy days when they tend to fly low to the ground to save energy .
Same with buildings ..never site them between to buildings that are close together for the same reasons.

 Do a lot of mugging up on swarm control,  not just by removing the new queen cells or snuffing out the queen  but by halving the brood box in to two new ones  or take a neuc's worth of frames out the brood box to start a new hive , to replicate what an issuing swarm would represent in a working hive  .

 When I did Women's institute talks I took drawn frames in a brood box , capped stores  and also several undrawn ones in a neuc box . I then was able to show them how bee control etc.was done inside their meeting halls . Turning up to such a meeting  in a full bee suit with bare hands is also very very effective if you don't have the hood over your head.

 Bees are only be a nuisance if you let them be one.

 This does have an amazing effect when you are explaining about bees to numpties.....
Collect 18 drone honey bees and put them in a small  lidded jar with a few strands of straw in it for them to walk over /stand on , pick them out with tweezers to show the judge & jury folk what bees look like and that you don't get stung when you put your fingers in the jar.
 Great Idea with the fence panels. I was thinking along those lines as the council seemed to be hung up on kids coming in the yard and wrecking the hives and getting stung. Humm..not so worried about the fact of "CRIMINAL TRESPASS" rofl.. so if they bring up something like that I will have to consider whether to introduce that idea.

Thanks for the gateway/hedge tip!

But as I am doing this in winter I can't use the brood nuc or the drone ideas. But will put it in notes in case this drags on to spring.

Or if I get another chance to educate! Would be awesome if something like that came out of this mess!
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  camprn 11/5/2013, 7:23 pm

Maybe you can find some help and professional witnesses for your next meeting. It sounds like they want to be educated, which is a good thing.
- http://www.iowaagriculture.gov/entomology/beekeepinginformation.asp

____________________________

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t1306-other-gardening-books



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Post  CindiLou 11/5/2013, 8:15 pm

camprn wrote:Maybe you can find some help and professional witnesses for your next meeting. It sounds like they want to be educated, which is a good thing.
- http://www.iowaagriculture.gov/entomology/beekeepinginformation.asp
Thanks, Camprn. I hadn't even thought of looking there, duh..

One of them listed was my instructor in class. Called him, he suggested as soon as I knew if I needed to I should call the state apiarist.

He can help and even give a presentation. Duh lol..I just never had to contact anyone.

But I definitely will for this if I need to!

My instructor seems to think that a flight barrier would be enough to set their minds at ease...

Jeez..I hate waiting lol and it has only been 24 hrs!
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Post  camprn 11/5/2013, 9:11 pm

Bring your pro witness and honey samples at the next meeting. drooling 

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Post  plantoid 11/6/2013, 4:27 am

Cindilou,
 
Just been thinking about the many keepers I helped .

 One guy  in high density housing area had four bee hives in a cheap small 8 x 8  light wooden shed (  painted a nice matt dark green surrounded  with flowers )   The principle of out of sight out of mind was "  Oh so true"  . His back end of the garden was also enclosed on three sides with six foot tall fence panels on concrete posts . you'd never ever know he had bees.

The entry and exits for the bees  were 3 inch rain water pipes above each hives entry board opening  going out through   the apex & screwed to drain pope clamps to keep them in place ( two at each end also painted dark green ).
 
 Andy never went out down the garden to the bees in his bee suit , he got dressed in the shed instead .
 Last time I spoke to him he'd been keeping his bees there for almost  seven years without a murmur from anyone .
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Re: Keeping bees

Post  CindiLou 11/6/2013, 7:56 am

plantoid wrote:Cindilou,
 
Just been thinking about the many keepers I helped .

 One guy  in high density housing area had four bee hives in a cheap small 8 x 8  light wooden shed (  painted a nice matt dark green surrounded  with flowers )   The principle of out of sight out of mind was "  Oh so true"  . His back end of the garden was also enclosed on three sides with six foot tall fence panels on concrete posts . you'd never ever know he had bees.

The entry and exits for the bees  were 3 inch rain water pipes above each hives entry board opening  going out through   the apex & screwed to drain pope clamps to keep them in place ( two at each end also painted dark green ).
 
 Andy never went out down the garden to the bees in his bee suit , he got dressed in the shed instead .
 Last time I spoke to him he'd been keeping his bees there for almost  seven years without a murmur from anyone .
Hubby was asking about something like that! Would make it a lot nicer to NOT have scariedy Marys calling in even when we get the ordinance!
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Keeping bees - Page 19 Empty Reporting in

Post  CindiLou 11/22/2013, 10:42 am

Cool! We are getting an ordinance FOR bees!rock on rock on 


They did call our state apiarist. He told them was no state model. They looked into as far away as Louisiana. Thank goodness for regional jealousy! "We don't need to consider their opinions, they are too far away". rofl 

They said they were NOT going to just take them off nuisance list. They wanted to regulate so they could control it a little bit. 

thinking   They asked for all the details about MY hives! Oh my!

So..we have a rough draft right now. No less than half an acre of land, no more than 4 hives, 30 ft from property line, and barrier at least 6 ft tall and no more than 3 feet from front of hive.

That is two more hives than I have! They did ask about swarming and such and how beekeepers try to avoid with nucs and such..So guess that answers that lol..


Tried to get them to go smaller lot, less from property line. They would NOT budge! They kept on about "room to forage"...Ok..I can't educate completely in a 15 minute meeting Sad But that is ok..I can work with it. Just can't have bees on my other property lol..

I don't have a barrier, but I did tell them I considered it necessary if there was a sidewalk or such in the flight path. It's ok..Hubby says 4x4s with 6ft fence panel. I say trellis lol. They did not specify and they did discuss that bushes would be acceptable.

3 feet from front of hive? Darn..someone was doing some research!

No they do NOT want permits. Was a long discussion about how to do that, too much hassle for little return.

No they don't want education requirements, to much hassle lol..

All in all, an ordinance I can definitely live with!

First reading on Dec. 2.


rock on rock on rock on
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Post  camprn 11/22/2013, 11:56 am

This ordinance (draft) would put me out of the beekeeping business. Is this still in committee?

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t1306-other-gardening-books



Keeping bees - Page 19 WxBanner?bannertype=wu_clean2day_cond&airportcode=KEEN&ForcedCity=Keene&ForcedState=NH&zipcode=03431&language=EN
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Post  CindiLou 11/22/2013, 12:56 pm

They don't want it as a business. They will not even give agricultural areas of town more hives. The one they are modeling it after allows 10 hives for agricultural and 4 for residential. They will only allow as small operation with the same for all districts in city limits. They are really stuck on the stinging thing. And people being allergic.

Committee? Hun, we don't have that big of town lol..population 4000. The committee is the city council members. They get to decide how it is done. Then the readings. Two, I believe. Then if there are not a lot of objections it will pass.

I believe the only reason we are getting anywhere is due to me doing it. There are many here that the council would be anti just because lol. Small town attitude.

This is one of the most lenient ordinances this part of Iowa has. The town right south of us bans, the one on either side does not allow by including them in their NUISANCE ordinance.
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Post  camprn 11/22/2013, 1:42 pm

CindiLou wrote:They don't want it as a business.
I was speaking figuratively about business. Let me be more clear. I would not be able to KEEP bees under this ordinance.

Now of course you didn't ask for my opinion, but I'm giving it anyway, because this is a forum.  I think it could be better, the ordinance...

I think that they could use some more facts and rational thinking to make it better instead of being emotional and 'worrying' about the potential for stinging. Clearly they don't understand what a swarm is and why it occurs and that is the most docile time for bees. Also, foraging happens  up to 3 miles from the hive, not on  the 0.5 acre.

Having sat in on writing policies I would like to say additionally, the benefit of having fewer details is being overlooked. Simply having it in writing that the entrances flyway have a barrier should be good enough.
~What about the folks who want to have bees on a roof would they still need a flyway barrier? What if they live on the edge of town with no neighbors but their plot is < 0.5 acres? would they be prohibited?

Lumping tons of details into an ordinance can be incredibly cumbersome and, by design, limit such an activity.
CindiLou wrote:They will not even give agricultural areas of town more hives. The one they are modeling it after allows 10 hives for agricultural and 4 for residential. They will only allow as small operation with the same for all districts in city limits. They are really stuck on the stinging thing. And people being allergic.

Committee? Hun, we don't have that big of town lol..population 4000. The committee is the city council members. They get to decide how it is done. Then the readings. Two, I believe. Then if there are not a lot of objections it will pass.

I believe the only reason we are getting anywhere is due to me doing it. There are many here that the council would be anti just because lol. Small town attitude.

This is one of the most lenient ordinances this part of Iowa has. The town right south of us bans, the one on either side does not allow by including them in their NUISANCE ordinance.

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Post  CindiLou 11/22/2013, 5:53 pm

If I want to have bees, this is what I have to do. Better this than NO bees.

No, if less than .5 acres, NO BEES. 

I could not get them to understand and I don't dare risk ticking them off. You do understand I am dealing with 5 people that know NOTHING about bees, six if you count the city manager and he holds a LOT of sway! 

They are very worried about CITY liability if someone gets stung. I have tried to tell them there is no way to tell if it is permitted bees or wild. They were NOT even going to talk about an ordinance till I told them "You had bees before mine were here, you'll have bees if mine are gone". That is a point that got them even considering allowing them.

And the fact that my grandsons were at my house (ages 7/4) for all day all summer and there was NO stings in my yard.

If someone wants them on their roof THEY can fight over that.I am trying to get them even allowed in town.
I am sure they will not allow it. 

I have enough trouble getting them to understand a swarm is NOT a danger. "But others won't know the difference between bees"...No idea what that one was about. They just keep going on about what if someone messed with the swarm. I told them beekeepers work to NOT have swarms if possible. And that wild bees swarm too. So they would have that danger even without beekeepers in town.

Hey, I got it down to a barrier! They WERE gonna make it an enclosure! A secured one! "Because what if kids come into the yard to mess with the hives and get hurt" thinking 
They were more worried about kids getting hurt when trespassing and causing damage then the possible damage done!
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Post  plantoid 11/23/2013, 5:36 pm

Sounds good CL .
In your circumstances .... Deffo  I'd make a four sided down to the ground , lockable entry door   enclosure , just to go the extra mile ,  as bees will just fly round a simple shield/ screening panel in front of the hive if the nectar source is to the side of the hive.

It will also keep pets away from them .  There's nowt worse that a hive protecting itself from a small yapping dog , stinging it to death and going for anyone such as kiddies or adults who come along at the time to try and recover the body of  " Precious " .
As " Precious " will have hundreds of stings still pumping out , " Attack here guys "  pheromones for the hive to target  .


    Here is a bit more info wrt foraging ,

Normally honey bees are supposed to go up to three miles from the hive.

 So Pi x  r squared being the area of a circle = 3.142 x 3 x 3 = area of forage in square miles @ 28.3 square miles  for your beees = zillions of flowers throughthe season.


 However if there is fairly calm warm moist weather and a good nectar flow with the wind blowing the scents & pollen  towards the bee forage area  you can almost double the radius they will fly.
 So theoretically  3.142 x 6 x 6 = 113 square miles for them to forage in if you live in the middle of Canola fields etc.  .
 
On nectar flow days the bees get well and truly kamikaze , a  mass endless squadron will fly in very visible bee lines to the nectars 7 pollens .
Don't get in the path of the bee line when it is getting close to the hive or if it is a windy day and they fly close to the ground @ say less than 8 feet  .
 
Some days when the hive is at max capacity and there are bees hanging on the outside  it's like seeing  a hosepipe flow  of bees to and from the hives.  Seeing a swam issue from a decent sized hive of  say double brood boxes  with four supers is similar but much more amazing as they fly off in an elongated cloud to where the scout bees have sussed out a resting place till everyone who's leaving the hive has left and formed up in the swarm cluster .

Then they all take off again , usually to they new home , sometimes in a spaced out cloud almost  50 yards across & 70 yard long
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Post  sanderson 11/24/2013, 1:44 am

Plantoid,  The way you describe a swarm sounds both Awesome, and frightening.  You Brits, with your eloquent dialogues and dry wit, can't be matched. Very Happy
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Post  plantoid 11/24/2013, 5:24 pm

Thanks for the compliment

I'd love to be able to describe the sound that 50 thousand or so bees make when issuing out a hive as a prime swarm with an old queen on a still warm afternoon , then the noise as they form a cloud waiting to land on a branch as  four foot long shimmering black carrot , the noise of they make  when the black carrot is settled as they await the scout bee's  arrivals to guide them to the new home.

Or
The noise of a secondary or later swarm issue as they land in a cluster awaiting  the young queen coming back from the mating ground fully mated for life with her small group of attendants and the noise of it  as she enters the cluster. The noise a small swarm makes is very different to that of a prime swarm .

 If you knock on a closed hive the bees inside respond with a rise in wing beating  sounds a bit like a five second long soft gentle  snore .
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Post  camprn 12/9/2013, 6:53 pm

At the risk of being gushy, I have yet to tire listening to Mike Palmer speak about how he keeps his apiary sustainable in the cold north.

https://youtu.be/nznzpiWEI8A

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Post  camprn 12/22/2013, 5:02 pm


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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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