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Grazon Poisioning

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Post  TCgardening 7/1/2015, 9:41 pm

This is pretty scary! Grazon is poisoning compost soil for the gardens. 
David the Good isn't a squarefoot gardener but does make a living as a nurseryman - author.  

http://www.floridasurvivalgardening.com/
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Post  Scorpio Rising 7/1/2015, 10:00 pm

TCgardening wrote: flower This is pretty scary! Grazon is poisoning compost soil for the gardens. 
David the Good isn't a squarefoot gardener but does make a living as a nurseryman - author.  

http://www.floridasurvivalgardening.com/
Jeez, this is REALLY scary!  Never heard of it!  Where I Am, RoundUp Ready crops are very controversial.  Not good for anything or anybody but the farmers bottom line.  But this is farm country....

That is why I planted 11 milkweeds, Asclepias incarnata and syriaca....trying to help.  Lost 2 BIG butterfly bushes winter before last, replanted 1 due to loosestrife getting bigger.
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Post  mollyhespra 7/1/2015, 10:30 pm

Yes, it is a very scary thing indeed, and what's worse is that it's been going on for a long time.  Here's a link to an earlier thread with more info: https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t7181-aminopyralid-in-manure#64779
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Post  sanderson 7/3/2015, 3:35 am

This topic, plus this one, https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t7181-aminopyralid-in-manure#64779 ,   have me thinking that I may have introduced one of these or a similar product, into my composts.  Was it the horse manure from Fresno State?  The horse manure from a riding stable?  The alfalfa hay?  The wheat bedding straw?

The tomatoes are producing but the leaves are getting smaller and all are curled.  I think I will start the "pea test" tomorrow to see which of my composts may be affected.

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Post  Marc Iverson 7/3/2015, 4:06 am

I frequently have problems with leaf curling; this topic makes me very nervous.
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Post  sanderson 7/3/2015, 4:14 am

I was going to merge this topic with the one Molly posted, thinking that they both dealt with the same ingredient. But, the active ingredients are different. Only the tomatoes are really affected. But, then, maybe my smallish bell peppers are another symptom. ??

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Post  mollyhespra 7/3/2015, 8:50 am

What are the other active ingredients? We should all know if they're equally culpable.
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Post  Scorpio Rising 7/3/2015, 5:34 pm

Or brand names?  What do I need to be on the lookout for if my farmers are feeding their animals?
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Post  TCgardening 7/3/2015, 6:20 pm

It looks like the two posts are related. "Grazon or other Aminopyralid-containing" So they are really one in the same. I also recall a different Mother Earth News article on Imprelis. This article discussed the product killing trees that were mulched with product contaminated with Imprelis. I didn't put that into gardening context, what a disaster this could be to the back yard gardener.
I can't imagine the effort involved in removing all the contaminated soil in my beds. It was hard enough setting everything up.
 So my thoughts of getting a load of local manure compost are out the window! Hope Black Cow keeps up the good work.
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Post  Scorpio Rising 7/3/2015, 6:31 pm

Pronounced "graze-on" I assume?  So the farmers spray it on the fields?  Good info.  How can this evil stuff make it through the animal and still screw with the plants?  Wow again:evil:
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Post  plantoid 7/6/2015, 9:31 am

It's not just Grazon either  .
 
If you read the destruction's on a bottle of weed & feed  lawn treatment it usually specifically says do not graze animals on it or use the cuttings made over the next five months as compost material . They also often say that if you use the 6 months later cut cuttings you must not use the new compost you make for at least two years .

 That's why I've often gone banging on about the in appropriateness of local authority collected and made so called compost .. you never known what someone has chucked over the materials being composted. The same applies to alot of private commercial interest who contract to local authorities etc for ground clearance or grass cutting contracts where they don't own the land .

Fortunately some of the more responsible commercial compost producers do  many different chemical presence testings and also do several different crop growth tests on their products but you will pay a premium for their high quality products. 

 Doing the pea test on every single bag of commercially made compost you buy after you have actually disturbed it and remixed it a couple of times is the only way to prove that the bags are not contaminated .
 If you soak the peas in clean tap water for 24 hours the peas will only take four or five days  to emerge or not as the case maybe.

If you also make an infusion ( steep a pound in three pints of clean water for the 24 hours giving it several stirrings in that time ) of the compost  you'll bring out any negative chemicals.


So soaking the peas in that solution for the 24 hr period   & then watering the test experiment peas with that liquid  is a very helpful exercise as well . At least it rules out a lot of negatives if they germinate .
 Obviously you need to make sure you also have viable seeds as well , not 10 year old stuff purchased at a garage sale.
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Post  plantoid 7/6/2015, 9:56 am

Scorpio Rising wrote:Pronounced "graze-on" I assume?  So the farmers spray it on the fields?  Good info.  How can this evil stuff make it through the animal and still screw with the plants?  Wow again:evil:
It's not so much evil as very effective in what it was designed for .
 ie. To kill all manner of unwanted plants in grazing land that may not only be harmful to the animals . Also to kill off the lower cattle feed energy plants & those that will also take up valuable nutrients and water from the land .
 Without such chemical controls think of adding a slack hand full of dollars to your weekly shopping bill .

The residual chemical effect of it still being a viable weed killer was I understand not envisaged . Though it does have financial advantages for the farmers & in the end for the consumers of the products off the fields . For it means that they only need one crop spraying that lasts for several years thus saving them the costs of more chemicals , oils , fuel and machinery to apply  it .

The problem lies with the stupidity of people who totally ignore the safety precautions  which are clearly printed on the containers & have been for well over 20 years ( first time I used Grazon )

Or

 Those who innocently unknowingly use materials from contaminated land because no one bothered to keep records of what they did , where they did it & tell others .
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Post  sanderson 10/13/2022, 5:24 pm

September 25, 2022, Markqz wrote in another thread:
Locally, there is a commercial landscaping company right next to the waste management site (never, ever call it a "dump"). Apparently they get first dibs, or at least that's how it looks to me. I imagine they use some of the compost at one of the many city parks, though I really don't see much of it. Once or twice a year they hold a compost event where members of the public can drive in and fill up their own containers with compost. The question is whether you trust this compost in your own garden. The suggested uses are mainly for landscaping -- gardening is not mentioned.

This started a discussion on Grazon that I think should be posted under this topic specific thread.

Soose replied:
It pays to be careful.  I got a good load of manure from a lady who swears her horses did not get any Grazon.  But the manure only grows grass, and when we tried to start a bean in it, it came up twisted and never grew beyond a few inches.  I had not mixed it with anything, it's separate,  but now I have to get rid of it. Somehow.

September 26, 2022, OhioGardener responded:
Unfortunately, if they bought grass hay for the horses they had no idea what was in it. It has become a real problem for gardeners these days.

A year or so ago I posted a note about doing a test for a neighbor on some composted cow manure they bought at a local gas station for $1.50 a bag. I tried to grow squash and beans in it, and they all yellowed and died. Those cows had apparently eaten Grazon. I told them the only thing the could do with that compost was spread it on their lawn - it would feed the grass and kill the weeds.

Soose:
I'm afraid to even spread it in my grass or field anywhere, who is to say I won't need to grow something there with food shortages in future,  you can't eat grass or if it's an edible, it will get into my own waste stream...  I think I need to bag it and put it into the waste-to-steam facility trash pickup one bag at a time.  That's heavily filtered as it burns.

Markqz:
Corn is a grass. I wonder how it would do? Lemon grass is also edible. I now have way more than I can use.

Soose"
Well, there's an idea.  I forget corn is a grass.  I bet there are some plants that would help cleanse a soil that has been contaminated with something like Grazon, faster than it would recover itself.  But I am just going to get rid of that manure. Not worth any chances.

Sanderson: [quote]I don't know how many hyperaccumulator crops and over how many years they would have to be grown to get Grazon and related products out of the soil. It may not even be possible using crops since they are not minerals. I don't know how many years it takes to naturally break down into harmless chemicals.[/quote/

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Post  Soose 10/13/2022, 5:40 pm

TY Sanderson for moving the thread on Grazon...  I was aware we were deviating.

The specialist from our Cooperative Extension Service called me back last Winter when I asked about Grazon in horse manure nearby.  I don't remember exactly but he did confirm that the 1.5yo hot composted manure from a horse farm would not be safe, and I think he said they don't really know how long it lasts.
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Post  sanderson 10/13/2022, 6:39 pm

That was honest of him and accurate info.

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Post  sanderson 10/13/2022, 7:12 pm

From Dow AgroScience:

"Do not use any plant material treated with GRAZON 90 for composting or mulching.
Do not use manure from animals fed on crops treated with GRAZON 90 for composting."

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Post  markqz 10/14/2022, 12:56 am

sanderson wrote:I don't know how many hyperaccumulator crops and over how many years they would have to be grown to get Grazon and related products out of the soil. It may not even be possible using crops since they are not minerals. I don't know how many years it takes to naturally break down into harmless chemicals.
This site suggests:
Another option is to plant members of the grass family for a couple of seasons. They are not affected by the toxin as it’s targeted at broad-leaf plants, not grasses. You can plant corn and grains and they’ll produce. Again, though, don’t compost the stalks.
They also suggest a test with pea seedlings (slightly different from Plantoid's above, but similar idea).

Most sources suggest that the chemicals will eventually break down.

At the moment, I need ideas for short grasses to grow.

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Post  OhioGardener 10/14/2022, 9:35 am

For those interested in more research on the impact of Grazon and other herbicides in manures, etc., North Carolina State Extension Publications has an excellent article on "Herbicide Carryover in Hay, Manure, Compost, and Grass Clippings".  Aminopyralid, the primary ingredient in Grazon is covered throughout the article.


https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/herbicide-carryover

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Post  sanderson 10/14/2022, 9:46 am

markqz wrote:. . . At the moment, I need ideas for short grasses to grow.
From a nematode article: grass family - barley, corn, oats, rice, rye, wheat.

Did I miss something? Do you have a suspected Grazon problem?

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Post  OhioGardener 10/14/2022, 10:03 am

Interesting list of Do Not's on Grazon label:

Do not transfer livestock from treated grazing areas to broadleaf crop
areas without first allowing 7 days of grazing on untreated grass pasture. Otherwise, urine may contain enough picloram to cause injury to sensitive broadleaf plants.

Do not use grass or hay or plant materials from treated areas or
manure from animals being fed treated forage or hay for composting
or mulching of desirable, susceptible broadleaf plants.

Do not use manure from animals grazing treated areas on land used
for growing broadleaf crops, ornamentals, orchards or other susceptible,
desirable plants. Manure may contain enough picloram to cause injury
to susceptible plants.

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Post  markqz 10/14/2022, 10:59 am

sanderson wrote:
markqz wrote:. . . At the moment, I need ideas for short grasses to grow.
From a nematode article: grass family - barley, corn, oats, rice, rye, wheat.

Did I miss something?  Do you have a suspected Grazon problem?

My boxes in the front yard have a failure-to-thrive for most everything planted. I used some community compost to set them up at the beginning of Covid. BUT ... my lemongrass is four-foot tall! I'm wondering if anyone bothers to check for Grazon in the steer manure they sell at the HD.
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Post  OhioGardener 10/14/2022, 11:12 am

markqz wrote: I'm wondering if anyone bothers to check for Grazon in the steer manure they sell at the HD.

I haven't had reason to test that one, but I tested a bag of "Cow Manure and Compost" for a friend that killed or stunted all of her plants. I don't remember, but I think the brand name was something like Timberline. It killed the beans, and the squash turned yellow when they tried to grow in it. I suggested she just grow a grass such a rye or wheat on her beds for a couple years to pull the herbicide out of the soil. She did that, but then things got worse. All of the plants that were pulled out of the contaminated soil were put in the compost bin, and all the compost was then contaminated, too.

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Post  sanderson 10/14/2022, 12:27 pm

OhioGardener wrote:
markqz wrote: I'm wondering if anyone bothers to check for Grazon in the steer manure they sell at the HD.
. . . I suggested she [neighbor] just grow a grass such a rye or wheat on her beds for a couple years to pull the herbicide out of the soil. She did that, but then things got worse. All of the plants that were pulled out of the contaminated soil were put in the compost bin, and all the compost was then contaminated, too.
What a Face

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