Rookie questions..

Some questions came to mind as I played on graph paper today.

I don't remember Mel talking about building longer beds than a single board. If I were to assemble a 16' bed, how would I join the two 8' pieces running the length? As of now, I got nothin'.

Do hoop-houses using semi-circles in a 4x8ish bed hurt established plants on the edges? If we have some decent lettuce/cabbage/broccoli in the outside squares, does the hoop come up quickly enough to get over the plants? I'm thinking of fall plantings here, obviously. I'm sure the plants are resilient enough to handle this, but I am curious.

I'm sure there will be others, but these are the two burning holes in my already over-cooked brain.

They sell 16 footers at H.D. and Lowes. Transporting them can be challenging! You can scab 8 footers together: use metal mending plates, find them in the lumber department with the Simpson ties; use a piece of plywood, cut to size, with lots of nails or screws; use a chunk of 2x cut to size, with lots of big nails; butt the two ends together and let them sit there unattached to each other, use a stake on each board to keep it in place.

Hoop houses on a 4 foot wide bed do fine, using the entire 10 foot stick. There is enough vertical clearance for most plants. Remember that on an eight foot bed, you'll need access from the sides.

This is the only picture I could find right now.

Duh, I never thought of that configuration boffer. Glad someone is n the ball.

Same box, different perspective. The sides were rolled up, prepared for the cold weather.

Chopper wrote:Duh, I never thought of that configuration boffer. Glad someone is n the ball.

The disadvantage, at least on table tops, is that access is from the ends (the short sides). This box is 4x6; reaching into the third (middle) row is awkward as can be.

Boffer, what are those thin strips of wood for, they look like 1x, nailed longwise to your 2x6's? Are those somehow for use in holding down the floating cover?

BBG, are you making permanent beds or building boxes? If you are making boxes you could also just make shorter boxes and place them next to each other. Then you could move your boxes in the future if need be.

We have 32' of fence on the north side of our garden, and we have built trellises all along it for growing tomatoes on one side of the gate, and squash and muskmelons on the other. We built 1' x 8' boxes and placed them next to each other, temporarily attaching them together with metal plates. We have an additional 16' along the side which only has a hog panel fence and no trellises, and we placed two more boxes there for growing peas and plants that need to be tied to the fence such as peppers and sunflowers.

We need to grow our tomatoes next to the trellises each year, and our peas next to the shorter fence, but we wanted to be able to rotate our crops. We decided it might be easier for us to move the boxes each year and continue to grow the tomatoes and peas in the same places.

With our six 1' x 8' boxes we can grow 16 tomatoes yearly, and then move those boxes to the right in a three-year rotation. Next year those boxes will grow squash and melons, and the squash boxes will be moved to grow peas. The pea boxes will move to the tomato spot. A bit unconventional, but I think two people should be able to move the narrow boxes, even full of MM. This will also allow us to give a good cleaning of the area between the boxes and fence. (The location of our other beds and boxes prohibit anything wider next to the fence, or we might have gone with 2' wide boxes, but the 1' wide ones grew great tomatoes, peppers, and butternut squash.)

This was our first year of SFG in boxes, so I'll let you know how the box rotation idea works.

Megan wrote:Boffer, what are those thin strips of wood for, they look like 1x, nailed longwise to your 2x6's? Are those somehow for use in holding down the floating cover?

Yes...we are guaranteed to get high winds in Nov or Dec every year. I haven't lost a cover yet.

Thank you, boffer, for the ideas. I have a utility trailer, so transporting won't be an issue. I just wonder about the cost differential since I haven't been out to price any wood, yet. Metal plates is another idea I may try if I buy 8' sections, or overlapping a little plywood. The more I thought....errr, obsessed...I figured 6" of MM doesn't probably push very hard on the sides anyway. So, they probably don't need a lot of fortification. I was likely overthinking this one.

The hoop-houses I notice have hoops every 2 feet? I was hoping to get away with every 4, but I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference to me. If it has to be 2 feet, it has to be 2 feet. As for access to the sides, I was planning on using a slidebar method I found on youtube where the crossbrace is loosely tied to the hoops, allowing it to slide freely when you remove the bricks, etc, from the bottom. I should be able to slide the entire sheet up when I need access to the beds. It looks as though you are doing something similar with raising your sides? Surely, in a 4 foot width, you can just reach in there from either side, yes?

Here is the vid I saw.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efQYpzNJOiE

As for the assembly, I was planning to put the braces on the inside of the garden. I notice yours are outside. Any reason, or just the way you did things?

Thanks again..

Ander, these are permanent beds. I don't know why, but I can't quite accept boxes yet. I love the way boffer's setup looks, but I just want them in the ground for no apparent reason...other than to maybe keep a lower profile and pick up some late summer ground temps (granted that works against me in the spring.).

I think I saw some pics of your fenceline gardens in another thread. I liked the idea a lot, and was going to run a 2x16 fenceline, but the fence would be on the west side of the bed, and I can get more squares before forcing myself to expand with the 4x12. (I know I said 16' before, but I am only going 12. I just wanted a number bigger than 10' since I know lumber comes in 10' sections. That worked out well, didn't it...since lumber apparently comes in 16' sections, too...lol.)

I'm a little confused by the whole moving the boxes to rotate concept? I just don't understand why you would need to move the boxes, unless the trellises don't move.

1x8 gets 16 tomato plants? Wow. I thought "1 per square?" I see Cukes get 2 per, but I'm amazed that toms can be packed in that closely. Please verify since that could possibly give me more room to try squash or zuccini with a couple of spare squares.

And, are you guys still 6" deep? Or have you gone deeper for tomatoes, peas, etc? I just can't wrap my head around 6", either. Last year, I went 8" and 10" because of a slope I wanted to make level. I can easily make a high-rise for my potatoes, but have resigned to growing 5-7" carrots and little fingers varieties...not that I care about 10" carrots. I am just still amazed that tomatoes can grow in such shallow soil.

Thanks for helping me, guys. I really appreciate it.

Hi BBG,

I haven't done the hoop covers (yet!) but here's a few thoughts.

If you haven't gotten the new SFG book yet, it's got great ideas on construction.

The whole concept of boxes has to do with not needing to dig into the ground, since you are making your own soil. Plus, being raised, the beds stay warmer in the spring and fall.

That being said, if you have aesthetic reasons for avoiding a box, I can understand that. I went that way myself this past year (my first), using landscaping timbers because the whole she-bang was in my front yard. It worked GREAT, but this coming spring I am going to build classic boxes in the backyard.

You can reach in from either side of a 4 foot bed, yes, but keep personal limitations in mind. I am 6 feet tall and I had trouble getting to the middle of the top of my trellis (plants well over 7 feet up.) This was my own fault as I didn't run the trellis on the edge of the bed as Mel recommends; I put it down the middle....but a good example of how a small oversight can cause you problems in months to come. Hard to think about it when they are just cute little sprouts in the Mix.

You don't even need 6", though if you live in a very hot area it might be useful. 4" works-- it's what I used--and if you look around you will see some photos of Boffer's plants' root balls to prove it. My boxes this year didn't have bottoms, but I can tell you that when I tore out the plants this October, they didn't go any further down than the end of the Mix. Sounds strange when you're new to it, but Mix is rich enough that you don't need scads of earth to grow a great crop. High-rise boxes are easy to build if you want to grow long carrots or taters, etc.

My hoops are attached to the outside of the box because the box was full of plants when I attached them. Most everything starts to sag when support is > 2 feet.

There's very few plants that can't be grown in 6 inches (or less) of Mel's Mix. The only reason for greater depth is for watering purposes in hot, arid climates (Phoenix, etc). Even with mulching, some of those folks water more than once a day.

Megan was reading my mind. Here's the topic she was referring to, that looks at tomato root development. It also has some pics of Ander's set-up.

https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t4156-tomato-roots#32137

BackyardBirdGardner wrote:
As for the assembly, I was planning to put the braces on the inside of the garden. I notice yours are outside. Any reason, or just the way you did things?

I put mine on the inside too.

BackyardBirdGardner wrote:
1x8 gets 16 tomato plants? Wow. I thought "1 per square?"

I planted my tomatoes every other square, then off set the next row by one square. You will need that extra space to allow your plants room for foliage and then for air flow later in the season. After the tomato plants started getting some height I pruned lower foliage (to allow for airflow) and I planted some basil in the squares between the tomatoes.

BackyardBirdGardner wrote:
And, are you guys still 6" deep? Or have you gone deeper for tomatoes, peas, etc? I just can't wrap my head around 6", either.

I used 8x2 for my boxes/beds, filled the boxes to the brim w/ Mel's Mix and ultimately it settled to about 6" of mix. That was very satisfactory for everything but my potatoes.

BackyardBirdGardner wrote: I am just still amazed that tomatoes can grow in such shallow soil.

It will work! Trust us!!

BackyardBirdGardner wrote:
I'm a little confused by the whole moving the boxes to rotate concept? I just don't understand why you would need to move the boxes, unless the trellises don't move.

1x8 gets 16 tomato plants? Wow. I thought "1 per square?" I see Cukes get 2 per, but I'm amazed that toms can be packed in that closely. Please verify since that could possibly give me more room to try squash or zuccini with a couple of spare squares.

And, are you guys still 6" deep? I can easily make a high-rise for my potatoes, but have resigned to growing 5-7" carrots and little fingers varieties...not that I care about 10" carrots. I am just still amazed that tomatoes can grow in such shallow soil.

I was afraid I hadn't explained it well. First, the rotation thing - Mel says trellises do best on the north side of the garden. We have permanent blueberry bushes planted on our east side, and we have a bed of Egyptian walking onions on the west side. So it makes sense for us to keep our trellises in a permanent location along the north fence, but rotate the boxes so we aren't planting tomatoes in the same MM year after year, allowing diseases to possibly build up over time.

No, we don't plant 16 tomatoes in 8 squares. Sorry. We have two 8' long boxes temporarily joined together, making 16' altogether. Some tomato varieties take up more room than others. We are trying to plant smaller varieties between larger ones to make best use of the space, but as Camprn said, some varieties would do better if planted one per two sq. ft. You'll figure that out by trial and error. If you saw my setup to which Boffer referred, you'll notice that by the end of the season our Sweet 100 cherry tomato had taken over most of a 4-ft. section of trellis. The others next to it had already succumbed to summer heat or diseases so I just let it roam, otherwise I would have pruned it back to its own section.

Why are you limiting yourself to 7" carrots if you want long ones? We built our first box 12" deep so we could grow potatoes and long carrots. We stupidly filled the whole box with MM not realizing we could have filled the bottom half of it with cheaper filler material. As Megan said, when we pulled all the plants at the end of the season none of the roots had penetrated deep into the box. We ended up not growing potatoes in that box, but if I had to do it over, I would build a 6" box and add a high rise only on those sections I wished to plant to potatoes or long carrots. My 1' x 8' boxes are 8" deep because we happened to have 8" lumber. But our MM settled over the summer to less than 6" and the roots still didn't reach the bottom of the boxes.

Trust us. 6" is all you need as long as you get your mix right to begin with. That's the most important thing IMO. (And don't forget as I did - a 3.9 cu ft. bale of peat moss decompresses to 8 cu. ft.) My first mix had twice the correct amount of peat moss. Not good in a hot, Missouri summer.

ander217 wrote:I was afraid I hadn't explained it well. First, the rotation thing - Mel says trellises do best on the north side of the garden. We have permanent blueberry bushes planted on our east side, and we have a bed of Egyptian walking onions on the west side. So it makes sense for us to keep our trellises in a permanent location along the north fence, but rotate the boxes so we aren't planting tomatoes in the same MM year after year, allowing diseases to possibly build up over time.

I think Ander means they rotate their crops, not actually moving the boxes around. (But please correct me if I am wrong!)

No, Megan, we're thinking it would actually be simpler to move the long boxes around. (Only the ones next to the fence. The others are permanently placed, I hope.) Otherwise we can only get in a two-year rotation plan for the tomatoes unless we build more trellises at the south end of the garden, and we have plans for other things there - sunflowers, and maybe moving the asparagus bed.

We thought about moving the MM each year, but I think in the end it will be easier just to unscrew the metal plates and disconnect the boxes from each other, (there's no real reason to connect them anyway except to help stabilize them on uneven ground) and rotate the two boxes from each section to the next section.

We haven't tried this yet, so the boxes may weigh more than I'm expecting, but I thought with the long, narrow size they wouldn't be too difficult to pick up and move, especially if we allow them to dry out before moving.

Does this idea sound crazy to everyone else?

Seriously... that sounds like a LOT of work! One of my high-rises, made of 2x12s cut to a box 1 foot by 4 feet long, is in the back of our pickup, and even empty it is heavy.

ander217 wrote:Does this idea sound crazy to everyone else?

Not at all, as long as the boxes have bottoms?! You're right, a 1x8 won't be bad to move.


On the other hand, it might give Rick a reason to buy forks for his tractor!

Megan, I am using different terms for boxes, personally. A "bed", to me, has no bottom. It's laid on the dirt/ground. A "box" has a bottom and usually, from what I've seen, is raised. I don't know that we disagree, but I would certainly be open to being corrected on this point...Like a bridge deck in cold weather, aren't raised boxes first to get cold with nothing insulating them from underneath? That is why I am avoiding lifting them off the ground. I want the ground beneath as insulation in fall to help me extend my growing season until the cold weather really hits.

The reaching should be planned for because my trellises, and any larger verticals, will be in a 2' bed instead of the 4 footer. I may need a little access around the back, as someone mentioned, to get to the tops of the tomatoes, etc, but I can feasibly reach 6-7' high from outside the beds, per testing in my house...lol.

I'm sure I'll be amazed at a 6'+ plant growing from 6" of MM, but it is still blowing my mind at the moment.

Thanks for your input and help.

Boffer, good to know about the >2' spans. I asked about the outside because I wonder if I would do the same thing, too. I am a notorious after-thought kind of guy. Is it too late to be diagnosed ADD these days?

Looking at those pics....Oh no, I'm a "disbeliever!!" But, I promise to come around soon.

Ander, thanks again for yet another reminder. Last year, I was guilty of not even knowing the decompression factor and had peat moss coming out my ears. And, yes, the Show-Me Summer roasted a lot of things. But, I am not afraid to water 2X daily, either, so all was not lost. I remember thinking, "My GOD, that's a lot of peat!!" Little did I know...lol. I would have made the same mistake twice if not for reading the new book, and this reminder.

Amazing how you ALL are saying "trust us" on the 6" thing. That's great!!

And, I understand now what you are saying about having to move the boxes...and why. That's what I was hoping you meant. Otherwise, I would have to classify you guys as the types of people that love a lot of unnecessary work...basically, the types of people I love to hire.

High rises will be a part of my future. But, for potatoes. I don't mind the shorter carrots. But, I know someday, out of spite, I will try and get some whoppers, too. This is just the beginning. {Rubs hands together w/ evil grin}

I don't think it sounds looney, either, to move the 1x8's. With a couple of bodies, you can likely pull it off. But, I would find a way to brace it about halfway, or more often, because the sag in the middle with all that moist dirt would make me nervous.

Thanks again for all the help. You guys have been a great addition to my thought processes.

BackyardBirdGardner wrote: I may need a little access around the back, as someone mentioned, to get to the tops of the tomatoes, etc, but I can feasibly reach 6-7' high from outside the beds, per testing in my house...lol.

My Gilbertie tomato plants were over 10 foot tall, I'm just sayin'.

HI BBG! If I havent welcomed you yet....


You should pat yourself on the back for even being smart enough to question the 6 inches....

I was new last year and also have 1 summer season under my belt. I have ALWAYS wanted a garden...but I am a city girl and playing in the dirt and digging rows and weeding just sounded like way too much work. I am lazy...

One day I stumbled on Mel's book....and LOL...I was sucked in....(I don't ever question if something sounds too good to be true...I jump in with both feet!)...sucked in is NOT an accurate word for what I was and am now after a year on this forum and a season with Mel's methods. Obsessed, addicted, is there a more intense word?...use that.

I am STILL learning new things every day but absolutely the 6 inches is enough! I grew potatoes in big plastic pots because dumping them out in a wheel barrow for harvest worked for me. I was too impatient for carrots and probably won't grow them again...but if I do some "fun" ones with the kiddos I will just use a pot or two like I did the taters.

I started with four 4X4 boxes last spring...and we are building four more for this spring.

Don't stress over the depth...seriously...if I could snap my fingers and take that worry away from you I would...because the time is much better spent preparing for evil things like voles, slugs, squash vine borers, earwigs and ants!!!! You will need one of these --->

Jen

Hey BBG

thanks for your questions and sharing your plans. Getting me motivated, feel like I am already behind!

I was having the same thoughts about the depth when thinking of toms.

great input from all the veterans here

GardenZen wrote:Hey BBG

thanks for your questions and sharing your plans. Getting me motivated, feel like I am already behind!

I was having the same thoughts about the depth when thinking of toms.

great input from all the veterans here

Any time!! I invite all to learn from my mistakes. How bout we all cut a deal? I go first. I screw it up real good. Y'all save yourselves some time after all the laughter calms down. Sound good?

Never be afraid to mess up....or ask questions. Human nature LOVES to help.

To boffer's new signature.

boffer wrote:You're right, a 1x8 won't be bad to move.

On the other hand, it might give Rick a reason to buy forks for his tractor!

Stop that, Boffer! He doesn't need any more ideas. :nono:

I can just see him now, driving his tractor across all the beds and boxes, knocking down the fences and trellises with a look of maniacal glee on his face as he tosses the boxes high in the air.

I'm gonna have nightmares all night.

Awesome gun, Jen. It looks just like the Nerf variety we bought the kids for Christmas. And, no, you don't want to mess with the business end of the Nerf semi-auto!!

My need for carrots is because of these kids. Hopefully, it will teach them patience, but somehow I doubt it. They just eat us out of house and home when it comes to carrots. Our main staple is lettuce. It's getting expensive at the stores and we use a ton of it in salads and on sammiches...lol. About three years ago, we planted some in the straight up dirt for funsies and we loved it. So much so, that was what got me thinking...."hmmmm, grandpa had one of those left-brained, logical square-foot garden thingies. I wonder if I build one of those..." The rest is history.

And, to Boffer's new sig.......i see the funnin' has already begun. Now, I will take my normal place back on the totem pole.....the bottom.

ps... as mentioned, i love self-depreciating humor. i have thick skin. and, if i dont take myself seriously...neither should you.