New to the forum, need help with a large project!

[RockstarParkingDude]

Hi, new to the forums and this is my first post

why i'm here is this: i'm working on a fairly large gardening project for this coming spring
and summer. I need a basic consult from someone who does gardening on larger
scale, maybe professionally, and could help me figure out a few of the
details. i have some money to throw at this project and i'd like to go
as green and organic as possible. the plot of land i'll be dealing with
is somewhere between a quarter and a half an acre. the idea is high
yeild produce, continual harvests from late may/early june to october,
and something to show off a bit. i have a nice plot with pretty good
soil and sun, but aside from that i'm starting from scratch.

anyone able to help with my project?

[Unmutual]

Welcome to the forums!

I am unsure if this is the place you mean to make your post. Since you mention good soil, I assume you're looking for traditional gardening methods. If you are looking for ideas and answers on a large Square Foot Gardening veggie plot, then you have indeed come to the right place.

SFG lends itself rather well to be modular(ie: start small, then expand). Therefor, large or small projects are pretty much the same thing. Just add boxes as space allows. Outside of finding reputable sellers of bulk items, I can't really think of any large project specifics that couldn't be answered by someone with a 4'x4' box. That is part of the beauty of SFG.

Hmm, maybe irrigation might need a bit of thinking, but even drip irrigation lends itself to be modular if you can sustain the water pressure. Then again, you could just have a few timers watering at slightly different times in each quadrant of your garden and sustain water pressure.

I could keep rambling on, but if you have questions, feel free to ask them. Someone here can point you in the right direction if not give you the complete answer outright. It's winter time, there's not much going on in most of the US and Canada, so take full advantage of bored gardeners!

[walshevak]

1/4 acre in sq foot method boxes will yield more than 1/4 acre traditional methods with MUCH less work once the initial beds, boxes ,tabletops are established. Get a copy of the ALL NEW SQUARE FOOT GARDENER. It is THE BOOK all of us on this forum swear by. You will be surprised at the amount of food you can grow in the space you have available.

My house sits on a 1/2 acre lot and I have 6 4x4 tabletops. Planning to expand by 4 more. They sit over my septic drain field allowing me to garden in otherwise grass only space leaving the rest of the yard available for other things.



Kay

[BackyardBirdGardner]

Welcome to the SFG forum. I think you'll be pleased with what you've stumbled across if you are looking for high yield, continual harvests.

My first recommendation, though, would be to buy the book. If you have a little green to toss at the project, do a little research over the next couple of weeks about the concept of SFG first. If it appeals to you, jump in. We will me more than willing to help you. If for some reason, it doesn't, then you only tossed $30, or less.

The initial investment in SFG, provided you do it right, is a bit costly. The expense dramatically drops off, but I would hate to see you commit to something you are not going to be happy with over such a large area. Spend the $30 and make sure you are going to be satisfied with your investment first.

Hope to see and hear more from you. We love answering questions. And, if you get your SFG up and running, we would love to see pics of the process and results when you get there.

[ashort]

If was making that many beds, I would rent a cement mixer to make mels mix..... I would also see about getting materials delivered to the site by the cubic yard...

[boffer]

This is strictly my opinion, and in no way reflects the opinions of other forum members or the SFG Foundation:

As suggested, read the book.

Mel says there's nothing wrong with row gardening if there is room for a tractor or mule to do the dirt work. SFG was designed for small spaces, to eliminate the manual labor that replaces a tractor. Taking SFG big doesn't make sense because row gardening would be more efficient for most things.

According to Mel, the ouput of ¼ to ½ acres could be duplicated with 2200 to 4400 square feet worth of SFG. Very few of us on the forum have more than 400 sf. Your upfront costs would be well over $10,000 on the low end. I don't know if one person working full time could manage it all.

What vegetables do you want to grow? How many people do you want to feed? Will it be commercial?

[RockstarParkingDude]

thanks for the quick replies!

i suppose i should have been more specific.

i'm an avid backyard gardener for years and years, however my restaurant has decided to put in a large garden in a large plot near the golf course that is unused. my boss knows how much i love gardening and that this has been a passion project of mine for years.

the ideal goal is that we want to be able to offset a bit of our high end produce costs (heirloom vegetables, fresh herbs, etc.) though we aren't looking to replace our everyday high volume produce (lettuces, onions, celeery, carrots, potatoes, etc.). also, it needs to be a beautiful garden, so that we can show it off to our membership.

i'm looking for more information about high volume out of small spaces, high yeild vegetables, quick yeild vegetables. i also need to get a price estimation for the project, which is giving me a bit of trouble. finding materials and labor is not really a big consideration, though i probably can't swing 20 grand, we have a maintainence and grounds crew for labor.

thanks again for the replies!

[sfg4uKim]

I agree that SFG would be a great way to go. However, if you feel it is not the method you envision, might I suggest SPIN Gardening.

[RockstarParkingDude]

My plot looks like its going to be about 150x75 or so.

i'm thinking that raised boxes is the way to go, probably something like 4x20 boxes, and as many as i can fit.

[BackyardBirdGardner]

Spitballing off the top...

If you were interested in aesthetics, you could incorporate all the raised beds in with other natural landscaping that would also produce for you. Using some native plantings, you may be able to achieve both the organic look and feel you desire. The gardens wouldn't take a bunch of space if you are just "offsetting" your produce costs. Since SFG cuts down on the space, you would have lots of room for paths, arbors, perennial flowers and shrubs, etc. If you drew some produce from the garden "area," your membership may really enjoy walking through and watching your garden change with the seasons.

That said, I do like Boffer's idea of practicality. If you have the labor and tools, you really don't need to minimize the efforts. I would like to know more because I am not sure I have a clear picture of your goal. Over the internet, this may take some time, but it's definitely worth playing around with.

[plantoid]

Hmm.. artistic , lots of visitors ,place to be comfortble ,,see the products , a reasonable area seating , areas for little groups of friends to imbibe and chat in natures colours .
Money to spend .. sounds good to me .

May I suggest you look at what I am currently doing with raised beds which will soon be changed over to " Mels Mix " and where possible his planting ideas .

My picture is part of my back garden only , my front garden has just recently been built and concreted today ... its still wet.
The beds are built in mortar & impervious red engineering bricks with a few highlighter bricks at each corner there are weep/ drain holes all along the lowest course of brick for drainage , each bed has 4 inches of 3/4 clean crushed stone in them to help with the drainage .
Each bed will be half filled with earth and then the top half with Mels Mix giving 18 inches of earth and 18 inches of Mel's Mix .

You could make a design of perimeter of raised beds with seatings around things and because the beds are much more prolific than normal beds you could make a sort of maze /matrix with numerous seats and walk ways similar to a crosswords skeleton frame .

I'd go for a herringbone block bric walk area or crazy paving as the concrete was the cheap option for me and I need the smoother easier cleanable surface of floated off concrete to move a disabled persons wheel chair around .

[ashort]

I think you are talking about a larger scale potager garden....

Google images

Edited to add: Since this is going to also be a show piece for your CC members, I would definitely include some flower plantings in as well...

[RockstarParkingDude]

those images are great, i didn't think of doing brick, but that might look absolutely beautiful. those images of potager gardens are very much what i'm looking for.

i'm thinking austhetics are secondary to production, but if i were to have say two 50x50 blocks with rows and say another 50x50 block in the middle the a few benches and umbrellas, etc. some flowers around the perimeter, this can be a beautiful project. it's starting to clarify in my mind a bit. thanks for all the help.

any ideas about irrigation? what about a greenhouse for starting seedlings early? would that be necessary?

EDIT: also, would anyone be able to help me get some ideas about the cost of this, or at least where i can find some information to do costing?

[ashort]

I would use drip irrigation if I were you

[RockstarParkingDude]

i'd like t use rainwater runoff if possible. what kind of equipment would i need for this? anyone with this type of experience?

[BackyardBirdGardner]

If you have the land, you could construct some holding pools to catch drainage. You could use pumps to water your gardens via drip irrigation. Starting seedlings is easy enough with either greenhouses, coldframes, or hoops. Search all three.

As for cost, just give the dimensions you decide on. The forum mathematicians will crunch the numbers to give a rough estimate.

But, I will go back to reading the book first and deciding how closely you want to follow SFG principles. It makes a huge difference in costs.

[RockstarParkingDude]

thanks for all the help, you guys are great.

i think it would be wonderful if i could manage somewhere around 30 boxes 4x20 feet, 10 boxes 4x12 feet, 5 boxes 4x5 feet all about 18 inches high, and a large 40x50 foot decorative area in the middle with a few round boxes for fruit trees, room for a few benches and tables, etc. throw in some flowers and shrubs around the perimeter, etc.

do you think i should go with mels mix? should i add soil? should i do layers? should i run my boxes north/south, east/west, or a combinaion of the two?

also i need some suggestions for high yeild varieties and heirlooms, i need to think continual harvest from june to october or so. ideally with different crops coming into harvest every two weeks or so. so far i know i'm growing lots of icile radishes, small heirloom tomatoes like yellow pears and black cherries, white asparagus, purple pole beans, acorn squash, red sweet corn, a few different chiles. but any varieties that have been particularly high output or quick to harvest would be wonderful, as would neat varieties you like. suggestions?

theres already an irrigation system for the golf course, i wonder if i could tap into that...

[B maier]

Let's say you are going to build a very simple 4x4 box that is 8 inches deep with no bottom... you will need about 16 ft. of 8 in wide boards .. probably 2 boards that are 8 ft. long. And then to fill that box you would need 10 and a half cubic feet of filling (3.5 of each compost, vermiculite and peat moss)

So go to your local home depot, lowe's, builder's square ...whatever find out what that would cost

2 boards 1x8 8 ft long, a box of screws, 1 x-large bag of peat moss, 1 x-large bag of compost and 1 x-large bag of vermicuite ... read the label to make sure the bag is 3.5 cubic feet you might need two bags of each.

Once you know how much one box will cost you can figure out how many boxes you can afford. But make sure you save money back for seeds and other equipment... hoses, tools, boxes for produce, storage, and a compost system.

Let's say you have 6 grand to spend... you could easily have 100 boxes set up if you keep the cost of each box at around $50 leaving a thousand dollars for the other stuff. 100 boxes would give you 1600 sq ft of garden space.

[B maier]

Something not mentioned in my above post... the amount of produce to expect. From what I have been able to gather.. raised bed gardening produces on average about a pound of veggies per square foot per year versus a half a pound using traditional methods.

Using the 100 box example that would be 1600 pounds of produce and assuming the value of the produce is set at 2 dollars a pound you end up with $3200 of produce per year. Looking at some price lists online that include organic veggies I see a few that are in the $3-$4 range.

Your ability to make a profit in the first year would be very difficult but it is possible if you can manage to reduce your set up costs... perhaps build the box frames from recycled pallets... find sources for free compost (start making your own for the future) buying the peat and verm. in bulk might earn you a discount.

[Unmutual]

First off, START COMPOSTING ALL THOSE KITCHEN SCRAPS AND CARDBOARD BOXES NOW!

Use a simple pallet composting design(|_|_|_| something like that), with multiple bins for easy turning(just put all the new stuff in the first bin then turn it to the next bin, then the next, unless you plan on turning once a day or something like that). Depending on how much waste the restaurant makes, you may need more. Designing an area that is close to the kitchen, yet concealed from customers might be a challenge. Hedges work great here, just make sure that the compost piles are tended regularly. Of course you could also have a wheelbarrow or yard cart close to the kitchen and then dump the refuse at a composting facility that is further away. Just don't forget to wash out those egg shells!

There are plenty of resources out there on the internet and especially your local extension office on composting(and gardening for that matter). Many people have gone before you in making restaurant veggie gardens, it is not unethical to steal some of their ideas. Your local extension office may even have some ideas for you.

See if you can obtain a few(well quite a few actually) used food-grade plastic drums to convert to rainwater barrels.

Plan where you are going to put beds and then start working out the irrigation. I'd assume some form of drip irrigation, so start getting the PVC piping(or whatever is code these days) and run some pipes to different areas of the garden.

Plan for the rest of the hardscape. While I wouldn't mind grassy or mulched pathways, a well defined border made from brick or stone might be a little more elegant, and might even invite some of your customers to walk around.

I think that SFG would not be viable for such a large area, possible yes, just not viable. That's a lot of peat moss and vermiculite bags. An awful lot of mixing too.

If I were to make a suggestion on the method to go with here, I would probably go with an intensive method(same spacing as SFG, but using soil that has plenty of compost added to it). Double dig these beds. More or less arrange these beds like a large scale raised bed garden, so you sort of end up with rows anyway. If you are planning on growing a lot of tall(vining or bush type plants..like tomatoes, peppers, peas, beans, etc.), then you might want to think about a 3' wide bed instead of 4'. Grow a green manure crop during off seasons for the beds(whatever is best for your area, this can be beans and peas that you would use in the restaurant) and definitely use crop rotation.

You could still go with a raised bed garden if you'd like, but the price of vermiculite and peat moss would leave you little money for seeds and irrigation. Filling the raised beds with pure compost is okay, but(and sometimes this is a big but), starting seeds in pure compost can be iffy at best. Damping off is your enemy, so you'd have to either produce your own plant starts(which would be the way to go anyway) or buy transplants(at ~$2 per plant).

One issue with using soil is weed seed. Every time you dig into that soil, you run the risk of bringing seed close enough to the top to germinate. Planting veggies in close proximity helps prevent weeds. Deep watering helps prevent weeds. These are 2 cultural practices you can do to limit the amount of weeds you have to dig up. Mulching is always a good idea(though I have to admit, I never mulch in my SFG beds).

I'd also suggest planting some orange, lemon and lime trees if your area permits these to grow(these are the 3 fruits that I think are used most frequently in cooking). Fruit trees are a great investment as they last for years and can be quite fragrant. Grapes might be another great perennial crop to grow, and they look great on trellises and arbors too. Have you thought about raspberries and/or blackberries? These grow great on hurricane fencing, just get the thornless varieties.

Lastly, I'd suggest some form of aromatic garden that is close to the sitting area. This is a great place to plant your herbs, aromatic fruit trees(if any) and maybe some roses. Just don't plant flowering plants too close to the tables, or you run the risk of insects visiting your customers too.

[plantoid]

I've just been thinking ( yes it does hurt some days )

Longish low easy to construct raised beds ..... use old wooden telephone poles , two diameters high , little end on to a thick end & secured / notched so they are like a pararie log cabin wall . They would most likely make a 20 inches high wall be good for 15 years or more and certainly be rustic.

If you don't like the idea of treated wood being adjacent to the growth medium use strips of butylpond liner or something else that's cheap and easily availabe to seperate them.

Does your golf course collect the cuttings off the greens & compost them like the UK courses do .
Do they also use sand by the big truck load along with high fibre based stuff like peat to help keep the pores of the course open after spikings .

If so your half way to getting your Mel's Mix components ..
They will also like as not have club members who are farmers & vegetable processors where manure & veg waste can be had by the truck load for next to nothing including transporting it to the course.

[sfg4uKim]

Or why not a combination of something like the SPIN method mentioned earlier along one side and more decorative SFGs in the main area?

This way you could use soil in the SPIN area and Mel's Mix in the SFGs resulting in a good use of your budget. Also, as you get a feel for how well SFG works, you can slowly convert the SPIN garden into SFGs as profit allows.

ABSOLUTELY start your own composting operation as this will give you the best return on investment regardless of what method you use.

[sherryeo]

My own personal preference would be for shorter than 20' long boxes. Those would become quite tedious to always have to walk all the way around, to me at least - unless they were against a fence or wall that you couldn't walk around anyway. And in that case they'd need to be shallower than 4' so you could reach all the way across them to tend/harvest the veggies.

[BackyardBirdGardner]

... Those would become quite tedious to always have to walk all the way around...

He mentioned he had labor (employees) covered, so HE won't be doing the walking around the boxes.

[sherryeo]

Point taken, BBG, but he also mentioned that he wanted to let guests meander through the garden. I'm not sure I'd want to meander around 20' long boxes! But that's just me.

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