Keeping bees

Thank you, pollinator!

Okay, let's rule some out. There was zero brood, and no odor, so I don't think it was foulbrood. They didn't die in a cluster I don't think, because there was a thick layer of dead bees on the bottom board. I had started seeing a lot of dead bees on top of the snow the entire winter and had a feeling something was not quite right, there were too many dying.

There were a lot of white specks in the cells and around BUT I had also kept hardened sugar (just sugar and water hardened together) in there since February, so I'm wondering if they may have been sugar granules, but they might well have been varroa droppings. One other thing about varroa is that I used drone combs last summer, and I don't think my timing was quite right on removing them, and I know if you don't catch the brood before it hatches it can multiply varroa in your hives.

No pollen in the hives. There was comb honey, but another possibility is that it was in a location that the cluster could not get to easily. We had a long, cold winter (with a lot of snow). Of course, I did put pollen patties in there starting February - could those have been a culprit... shouldn't be, but can't say 100%.

I'm leaning towards either a substance, varroa (altho I didn't see any mites, and didn't notice wing issues), or starvation from poorly placed honey comb. But mostly leaning towards the main culprit, varroa.

The aggravating thing is that both hives were affected, not just one. The stronger hive was affected the most.

In my weaker hive I see working layers - 2 eggs per cell. I'm writing that one off too.

One other consideration is that the packages we buy are raised in the south, and I hear that the queens raised in the south are not well adapted to live up here in the cold north, and that there is a lot of failure with the queens. Altho I wouldn't think a queen failure would kill them off over winter.

If I had thought more clearly I would have gathered the dead bees and sent them off to be tested, and next time I will do that.

NHGardener wrote:

There were a lot of white specks in the cells and around BUT I had also kept hardened sugar (just sugar and water hardened together) in there since February, so I'm wondering if they may have been sugar granules, but they might well have been varroa droppings. One other thing about varroa is that I used drone combs last summer, and I don't think my timing was quite right on removing them, and I know if you don't catch the brood before it hatches it can multiply varroa in your hives.

The white specks from varroa should be distinguishable from sugar, as they would be smeared and stuck to the sides and tops of the brood cells.

NHGardener wrote: No pollen in the hives. There was comb honey, but another possibility is that it was in a location that the cluster could not get to easily. We had a long, cold winter (with a lot of snow). Of course, I did put pollen patties in there starting February - could those have been a culprit... shouldn't be, but can't say 100%.

I doubt the patties would hurt any; they should help.

NHGardener wrote:I'm leaning towards either a substance, varroa (altho I didn't see any mites, and didn't notice wing issues), or starvation from poorly placed honey comb. But mostly leaning towards the main culprit, varroa.

The aggravating thing is that both hives were affected, not just one. The stronger hive was affected the most.

In my weaker hive I see working layers - 2 eggs per cell. I'm writing that one off too.

If they eggs are in the bottom of the cell, it's a failing queen. If they are on the sides about halfway down, it's a laying worker (usually more than 2 eggs -sometimes 10-15). A young queen will sometimes lay two eggs in some cells until she gets into her groove.

NHGardener wrote:One other consideration is that the packages we buy are raised in the south, and I hear that the queens raised in the south are not well adapted to live up here in the cold north, and that there is a lot of failure with the queens. Altho I wouldn't think a queen failure would kill them off over winter.

Sounds like you've been talking to a salesman. That's hype. The queen breeders in the South know better. They raise queens from proven northern stock, not southern.

But sometimes failure is from factors than no one can control. Ideally a queen should mate with about 15 drones. But if she flies on a cold windy, or rainy day, she may not meet this quota, and she'll run out of sperm before a well mated queen would. Otherwise good breeders make sure they queens have good nutrition and mating yards that are saturated with high quality drones.

Queens can also be killed or injured by the beekeeper pulling out frames. If she gets pinched or rolled, and it's too late for the colony to rear and mate an emergency queen, it's a lost colony.

The fact that you had no brood at all, would indicate queen failure as a factor. The droppings of varroa could add that as another factor.

Ok, the hive "Confusion" IS dead. They were in the hive, under the hive, and in the screened board. I dropped the queen cage the next day as I was taking it out. After she had been released. She was alive and well when I put her in. Could she have gone on maiden flight and not come back? Could the cold have killed her? This was a very confusing hive!
There was very little comb..maybe a hand sized circle on ONE frame side. Dead bees head first in side. There was burr comb UNDER the frames. Dead bees head first.
You say that is a sign of starving. I used a top feed like told in my class. Of course no one knew our 2" predicted snow would be 12"! Did they NOT cluster right to start with because of no queen?
This was some of the bees. Just as many dead underneath,
Maybe a dozen flying around....

On the other hand "Chaos" is thriving! No, I did not see the queen on this my first inspection. But I have eggs, small larvae, and large larvae! Different colors of pollen, nectar (or syrup?). AND LOTS OF BUZZING BEES!
One side of one comb had all kinds of babies! Some on another also. 5 frames had comb being built with one side of one full.


I think next time I will NOT do inspection with hubby around! He rushes me! The ladies were calm and I was enjoying myself!

Alex (6yrs) loved the burr comb!


One of the combs with dead bees


I left the top feeder on the live hive, lots of bees drinking from it. Will need to make more syrup tomorrow.

pretending I know what I am doing!

CindiLou wrote: pretending I know what I am doing!

you are learning

CindiLou wrote: pretending I know what I am doing!

ROFL!

CindiLou, you are learning fast in the University of the Seat of the Pants. That storm was a hard blow for one just starting. Apparently they just got separated from their food supply, and were too cold to move to it. The bees in the comb head first is classic starvation symptoms.

That's one reason I like the sugar rim feeders. Hungry bees are usually at the tops of the frames, but not necessarily under the feeder hole. The sugar feeders provide feed all across the entire top. But if the cluster was small and they couldn't liquify the sugar, they might have perished anyway. It's sad. But it's apparently one of those things that just couldn't be helped.

You, or someone, (please forgive my senioritis) mentioned about the queen making a mating flight? No one I know would ship package bees with unmated queens. In fact a good breeder should have the queen laying and showing a decent laying pattern before ever caging and shipping it off.

I am going to keep in mind the sugar feeder thing. My poor ladies. I starved them to death Karma is gonna get me, I just know it...

I asked if she did a maiden flight. Guess I learn a lot every day lol..Makes sense she would have already before being shipped.

But my ladies were very patient today! And in a good mood.

Now to decide what to do about the second hive. Will cost about $80 for a nuc.

I don't think I want to wait and take a frame of brood from this hive since it is new.
I want to make up my mind in the next couple of weeks. While blooming is still going strong and not so hot for them.

I don't want to go into winter with one hive. But I need to give a second one plenty of time to build up.

CindiLou wrote:I am going to keep in mind the sugar feeder thing. My poor ladies. I starved them to death Karma is gonna get me, I just know it...

I asked if she did a maiden flight. Guess I learn a lot every day lol..Makes sense she would have already before being shipped.

But my ladies were very patient today! And in a good mood.

Now to decide what to do about the second hive. Will cost about $80 for a nuc.

I don't think I want to wait and take a frame of brood from this hive since it is new.
I want to make up my mind in the next couple of weeks. While blooming is still going strong and not so hot for them.

I don't want to go into winter with one hive. But I need to give a second one plenty of time to build up.

I wouldn't knock yourself. You were doing the best you knew, under freaky conditions.

You might try the old fashioned way on getting your second hive. Get on your county extension list, your local firemen, police, etc. to let them know you are available to take swarms.

Or you can set up your hive for a time as a bait box. With a bit of comb already drawn, it will be more attractive. To entice a swarm to chose your box, put it up high (at least six feet) in the air. Check it daily during swarm season.

Back where there were lots of wild bees, I put up bait boxes along the river swamps here, where there were many colonies in hollow trees. I would nail two 2x4s between two trees about six feet up. Then I'd screw/tack three hives on those, with the middle one facing the opposite direction as the end hives. The last year before the varroa mites came in, I caught almost a hundred colonies.

As soon as you get a swarm in the box, move it to your prepared location.

Now there are few swarms nowadays, compared to what they used to be. Around here, varroa mites and clearcut logging have done in most of the feral bees. But there still are a few. And there are beekeepers who do not practice swarm prevention - which isn't very smart - it's about like a cattleman letting all his calves run off to be lost in the woods.

Any experienced beekeeper can tell you, they'd rather have the swarm than the colony that cast the swarm. Swarms are primed to GO. If you wan't foundation drawn perfectly, a swarm will do it better.

Just a thought.

Pollenator do they practice artificial insemination of queen bees over your side of the pond for inclusion in packages of bees?
Then run them as small neucs to prove the fertility .
or
Do they just bung an inseminated queen in a queen holder and slip her in with a pack of shaken bees and ship them out?

It was something I wanted to try, ready for setting up selling bee packages as a side line when I retired but I couldnt afford a decent microscope and the other equipment at the time .

Pollinator - thank you again for all the information! I am really hopeful to think maybe I don't actually have laying workers in my hive just because there are 2 eggs per cell. Maybe she's actually a new queen? Or for some reason just not into the swing of things yet. I'm going to give that hive a little more time before I write it off.

Also, I'm intrigued to try a bait hive! I can rest a medium or two with drawn out comb/honey frames on top of the 8' chicken run and see what happens. I know wax moths, etc. can be an issue with honey in there, so I wouldn't leave it for long, but right now I believe is swarm time so it would be really interesting.

Would I have to put a bottom board under the super? Stack 2? Cover?

Cindi, glad to follow your story too.

New today from bee Culture.
http://blog.beeculture.com/?p=151

Thanks that was interesting Camp , no mention of pre mated tested queens , pesticides or GM crops either . Things must vary all over the USA just like the UK .

Wow camprn, thanks for that, sounds like my story.

i don't know exactly what to say about the situation. Of course we feed new packages. But if, say, the queen's been damaged, then I guess the 2 choices are re-queen the package fairly quickly, or just let them requeen themselves. I'm kind of inclined to let them requeen themselves. Last year I remember thinking - oh no, queen cells, I better scrape those, and afterwards I second thought that.

Do you requeen with local queens?

I'm interested in what they're going to say about varroa. As one club member said here, they don't die from varroa, they die because the varroa chews a hole into them that lets viruses pass in.

I had three self raised queens last year (for a variety of reasons) and I am happy with the results. The Italian spare queen I bought for a split failed. The self raised queens all came through late summer laying well and putting up honey. They managed the winter in great shape.

I don't touch supersedure type queen cups, but I do pay attention to any signs of swarming and swarm type cells.

plantoid wrote:Pollenator do they practice artificial insemination of queen bees over your side of the pond for inclusion in packages of bees?
Then run them as small neucs to prove the fertility .
or
Do they just bung an inseminated queen in a queen holder and slip her in with a pack of shaken bees and ship them out?

It was something I wanted to try, ready for setting up selling bee packages as a side line when I retired but I couldnt afford a decent microscope and the other equipment at the time .

The queens for production use are all naturally mated in small nucs. Then they are given time enough to produce some brood, so they can be evaluated. They are then taken out of the mating nuc, and placed in a package, or sold separately. Another cell is placed into the mating nuc for another run.

Artificially inseminated queens are much too expensive for production use (And they wouldn't be very good anyway, as they don't hold up well for the long term. It's hard to get enough sperm into them to match natural mating with 12-15 drones.)

AI queens sell at auctions at the national bee meetings, and some bring thousands of dollars. They are used by queen breeders, in producing the queen cells that become new queens. Usually a second AI queen is used to develop the drone rearing colonies that are used to flood the mating yards with high quality drones.

Queen breeders do not want to narrow the gene pool, so they normally breed from two different lines. The second line has a valued characteristic, such as varroa resistance, or hygienic behavior.

Plantoid, you don't need to raise AI queens to do packages. You just need to get super strong bees early in the season so you can shake the extra bees out of them.

If your bees are in nice shape, you can get at least a package from each two hives. When you are done, your swarm control of your own bees has been taken care of; you can super them up and let them make honey. Or you can shake a second series of packages from them, if there is still a market.

In order to do this, you might want to team up with a queen breeder in a partnership, because it's hard to do both packages and queens at the same time, unless you have a big enough commercial operation to run two divisions with several employees in each. Even with just doing packages and buying queens, you'll still need at least temporary help as it will take 3-5 people to make up the packages. There is a strong market for packages, so it's a good way to get some early cash flow from your business.

You can do artificial insemination with a $50 used school dissecting microscope, if you wish. Everything else could be homemade. I've never had the need for it, other than to just play around (and I have, just for the experience). You'd have to be really, really good, and have access to the greatest stock, to get AI queens that bring the big bucks.

camprn - How did you know you had 3 self-raised queens? Were the originals marked?

Thanks Pollenator that was very very informative and useful.

NHGardener wrote:camprn - How did you know you had 3 self-raised queens? Were the originals marked?

Nope I didn't have mrked queens. Over the course of the season I knew when they weren't queenright (no eggs or brood). And then there were all the queen cells...

I'm looking at queen cells in a whole new light now - as something to want instead of something to get rid of. Esp. since I heard it's not uncommon to see 2 or more queens in a hive.

BEEEEEZZZZZZZZ...
in the kitchen because it's raining like crazy outside.

Wow, camprn! Are those Italians? Carn's?

I don't pick up until next weekend.

Italians and 2 spare queens on top.

Awesome!

I just had to give mine more syrup...They were almost out and it is going to get down below 40 again tonight! darn..I am NOT having a good year to start beekeeping!

Forecast says down to 33° ..jeez..when is winter going to leave IOWA!!