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Karen From Delaware Toplef10Karen From Delaware 1zd3ho10

Hello Guest!
Welcome to the official Square Foot Gardening Forum.
There's lots to learn here by reading as a guest. However, if you become a member (it's free, ad free and spam-free) you'll have access to our large vermiculite databases, our seed exchange spreadsheets, Mel's Mix calculator, and many more members' pictures in the Gallery. Enjoy.

Karen From Delaware I22gcj10Karen From Delaware 14dhcg10

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Karen From Delaware

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Karen From Delaware Empty Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/27/2022, 11:55 am

I tried my first garden this year and the pests, etc... won. I'd like to try SFG and am making plans for next year. I have four 4x4 raised beds and one 4x8 raised bed. Adding up the cost of the ingredients for Mel's mix, it's expensive!! Any suggestions for making it a little more economical? Welcome any thoughts!! Thank you. I'm looking forward to learning and hopefully being a little (or a lot - the bar is low) more successful next season.
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Post  Scorpio Rising 8/27/2022, 2:53 pm

First of all, welcome!  Have you read any of Mels books?  All New Square Foot gardening is a real game changer….that sounds like a LOT of space to start with to be honest!  Because it is a very intensive method, you can get away with a lot less space with as much production.  

Have you gardened before this year?  SFG truly saves back and time…Look forward to hearing from you!
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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/28/2022, 6:11 am

Hi Scorpio Rising,
I'm reading his book now and just found this forum. Yes, this year was my first "real garden" (I've done container herbs/tomatoes before). As for the size - the boxes are there so I'd like to use them if possible. I could always plant them with flowers (Love cut flowers) during the "learning stage".  Any thoughts on creating Mels Mix economically? A friend of my son, who has a small commercial organic farm, gave me the name of someone who sells organic compost for a reasonable cost. I think I read I can use 100% compost? Thanks for your reply!!
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Post  OhioGardener 8/28/2022, 8:43 am

KarenSB wrote:I think I read I can use 100% compost? Thanks for your reply!!

You will not want to use 100% compost to fill the beds.  The peat helps to retain moisture, and the coarse vermiculite keeps the soil loose and friable (don't use fine or medium vermiculite). The organic compost you can get locally could be a good portion of the compost, but it is important to have a blend of different types of compost in order to get a balance of nutrients and microbes.

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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  donnainzone5 8/28/2022, 1:19 pm

To minimize cost and effort and maximize your learning process, start with one or two beds.  Depending upon your location, we should be able to suggest some compost resources.  It's important to read All New Square Foot Gardening, Third Edition, prior to beginning your SFG journey.  Happy gardening!
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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/28/2022, 6:14 pm

Thanks for the reply. I bought the 3rd edition - will have next week. I have the beds already so I'd like to use them. I can just plant flowers in 2 of the beds - we'll see. I have time to decide. 
I live in coastal Delaware - zone 7b. Any resources would be very welcome!
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Post  donnainzone5 8/28/2022, 6:26 pm

Local garden centers and grow stores sometimes have suitable composts.  A few supermarkets here and there offer plant-based bagged composts.  Consider gathering and storing leaves this fall to make leaf mold.  Only one of your 5 composts should be manure-based.  Read labels carefully to rule out composts that already contain peat moss.
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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/28/2022, 6:45 pm

I really appreciate the replies. A local greenhouse & compost facility sells organic compost. I'm going to send them an email to see what ingredients they use in their compost.
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Post  sanderson 8/29/2022, 10:11 pm

Karen, Welcome to the Forum from California. You may want to check out Veteran's Compost. They even make Mel's Mix. There are several sites in DE, DC, MD, PA for bagged compost.

How deep are your beds? All you need are 6-7" of Mel's Mix for growing. If you have deeper beds, the SFG Foundation recommends filling the lower part with inert material like sand or top soil. Can you post photos of the current garden? Thank you.

https://www.veterancompost.com/our-products/

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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/30/2022, 10:46 am

Thanks for the welcome & resource @ Sanderson. I checked out veterancompost.com.  They are a couple of hours from my location, unfortunately. I reached out to them to see if they know of any source locally. I see they use rice hulls instead of vermiculite. Has anyone used this as a replacement?  Thanks. Karen
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Post  OhioGardener 8/30/2022, 11:00 am

KarenSB wrote:I see they use rice hulls instead of vermiculite. Has anyone used this as a replacement? 

I have been testing rice hulls as a mulch, and they were working extremely well until we had a small tornado that spread the rice hulls across 3 counties. Of the rice hulls that are still on the beds, but the hulls in contact with the soil have begun decomposing. Since rice hulls are organic matter, I would expect them to break down in about a year's time. This would be the primary difference between rice hulls and vermiculite - vermiculite will last for years before breaking down, while rice hulls will last only about a year.

I noticed on the Veteran Compost page they are using rice hulls as a temporary solution due to the shortage of coarse vermiculite:

"Please note that this mix no longer contains coarse vermiculite due to a global shortage.  Our growth trials have shown rice hulls to be a great substitute."

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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  sanderson 8/30/2022, 1:29 pm

OG and Karen, Thank you for diving into the use of rice hulls by Veteran's Compost as a substitute for vermiculite. Rice hulls are NOT supported as a substitute by the SFG Foundation.

Karen, Did you find out if you could buy just their bagged compost within like an hour's drive? Where you live, there are more compost options than in California. Do READ the LABELS for added peat, sand, etc.!! I'm in a compost desert and now only have 3 different sources of real compost. One is by Ace Hardware and I pick up bags when I visit the kiddos 3 hours away.

Unfortunately, I had to give up composting due to age and my back. I really recommend a 3'x3'x3' wood-slat bin for making hot compost. A 3-bin system is the best if one has room. Look at the 3-bin system OG recently built.
https://squarefoot.forumotion.com/t23526-new-compost-bins-x3?highlight=compost.

Farm Tek is still carrying PVPInd's coarse and super coarse vermiculite.

https://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/search?searchQuery=vermiculite

A M Leonard has Palmetto's coarse on back order.

https://www.amleo.com/a-3-coarse-grade-vermiculite/p/PVA34CF

Greenhouse Mega Store still has PVPInd coarse but are out of super coarse.

https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/supplies/soil-and-soil-amendments/vermiculite?returnurl=%2fsearch%3fq%3dvermiculite


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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 8/30/2022, 1:46 pm

Thank you so much for the vermiculite resources!! 

I just received my 3rd edition copy of SFG and got the ebook FAQ book. I'm excited!!

I'll probably fill 2 beds this fall with Mels Mix and wait until spring to fill the remaining beds - or just use them for cut flowers. It's expensive but it's been a strong sell to stay true to the formula. I get the expense is upfront and over 10 years, isn't that much. 

I really appreciate the support!! Hope I can eventually support someone, sometime down the road... :-)
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Post  sanderson 8/30/2022, 1:59 pm

I have one more suggestion. Screen all bags of compost. Quality for even well-loved brands seemed to have dropped this year. Screen out wood, bottle caps and rocks. Razz A wood frame with 1/4" hardware cloth set over a collection system such as a wheel barrow, 33-gallon rolling plastic garbage can or 4 bricks on a blue tarp works. Do each type of compost in small batches to make it easier to blend them. Then take a bucket of mixed and add a bucket each of fluffed peat moss and coarse / super coarse vermiculite. Wet well and dump, or dump and wet well in the bed. Repeat. Wetting the new MM is really important in order to get the peat moss wet. Make sure you end up with a true 6-7" of MM after it's been watered to death. It will drain well so you can't over do this step.

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Post  theDefeatedTech 8/30/2022, 3:40 pm

Seriously... Seems like it is impossible to find compost without uncomposted wood shavings/chips in it.
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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 9/6/2022, 8:28 am

I started collecting the ingredients for Mels Mix. I have the peat moss and vermiculite on order. For the compost, I have Just Natural (brand) mushroom compost and Earthgro Organic Hummus and Manure. I ordered organic leaf compost and was going to buy some earthworm castings as well. Is there something else I should be adding? There is no peat moss in any of the bagged compost that I purchased.  I hope to have the beds filled by the week of the 12th.

Other questions -  

My beds are 12" high. Should I fill the bottom with something since the Mels Mix will only be approx 6", and if so, what? What should I use to separate the bottom layer from Mels Mix? 

Should I cover the beds over the winter or plant something that can get composted in spring when I'm ready to start my vegetable garden? Any suggestions?  I'm in zone 7b.

If I have the beds filled by the 9/16, is it too late to sow seeds for some of the cooler weather crops?

Thank you so much!!
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Post  OhioGardener 9/7/2022, 9:46 am

KarenSB wrote:My beds are 12" high. Should I fill the bottom with something since the Mels Mix will only be approx 6", and if so, what? What should I use to separate the bottom layer from Mels Mix?

Yes, you will probably want to fill the first 6" with something like sand or topsoil.  MM is too expensive to fill all 12" with it.

Should I cover the beds over the winter or plant something that can get composted in spring when I'm ready to start my vegetable garden? Any suggestions?  I'm in zone 7b.

I always cover mine for the winter with either a mulch or a cover crop. I don't like to leave my soil open (uncovered) at any time. The winter weather is too hard on the soil when it is exposed.  A saying that I heard a long time ago and never forgot sums it up, "Mother Nature doesn't like to be naked, so cover her up."

If I have the beds filled by the 9/16, is it too late to sow seeds for some of the cooler weather crops?

Depends on your First Frost Date and the Days to Maturity of the seeds you are planting. For example, Green Beans have a maturity of 60 days - do you have 60 days between 9/16 and your first frost date?  Swiss Chard, though has a maturity of 50 days, so that gives a little more time. Check the seeds you want to plant for maturity time, and plan accordingly. If you want something like Broccoli, Kale, Brussels Sprouts, etc., you can start the seeds indoors ahead of time to give a little more time to grow.

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Post  KarenSB 9/7/2022, 9:59 am

Thank you @ ohiogardener!!  Are the ingredients I have for the compost adequate? Is there anything else I need to add?
Just Natural (brand) mushroom compost and Earthgro Organic Hummus and Manure. I ordered organic leaf compost and was going to buy some earthworm castings as well.
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Post  OhioGardener 9/7/2022, 10:30 am

KarenSB wrote: Are the ingredients I have for the compost adequate? Is there anything else I need to add?
Just Natural (brand) mushroom compost and Earthgro Organic Hummus and Manure. I ordered organic leaf compost and was going to buy some earthworm castings as well.

I am sure others will have more expertise on this than me, but here are my thoughts.  The more different types of compost, the better. You must check the ingredients of the various composts. Many of them are full of peat and wood chips, which means you have to adjust the amount of peat you use and you may have to screen out the wood chips. the Earthgro Organic Humus and Manure, for example, says their product is, "Organic Humus: derived from peat, compost, forest products, manure, and/or other organic materials."  It contains both peat and "forest products" (wood chips), but they don't say what the other "organic materials" are. Probably not the best choice.



That said, it has become more and more difficult to locate quality compost over the past couple years, so we have to do the best we can with what we can get. The key is to get as good a mixture as possible, and get it in as early as possible so that it has times to mature before planting.

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Post  Scorpio Rising 9/7/2022, 6:50 pm

Karen, I used old re-purposed window boxes for my first “SFG”, they were deep, and about 1.5 feet wide (vs 1 ft.). I filled them with at least 6-8 inches of leaves from my yard, and topped with the best MM I could come up with…ended up heavy on the peat end of things.  

Live and learn.  Make adjustments.  You will do better than most folks.
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Post  sanderson 9/11/2022, 3:16 am

KarenSB wrote:Thank you @ ohiogardener!!  Are the ingredients I have for the compost adequate? Is there anything else I need to add?
Just Natural (brand) mushroom compost and Earthgro Organic Hummus and Manure. I ordered organic leaf compost and was going to buy some earthworm castings as well.
It's been very difficult to find a variety of composts this year.  As OG mentioned, the Earthgro product has peat moss so adjust the 1/3 peat moss down a bit to compensate.  Don't forget to fluff the peat moss before measuring.
A wood frame with 1/4" hardware cloth makes a great screen for bagged composts to sift out wood pieces.

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Karen From Delaware Empty Re: Karen From Delaware

Post  KarenSB 9/11/2022, 4:32 am

Thank you @sanderson.

I found something called Blue Ribbon Compost on Amazon:
“The compost is made with recycled materials including brush, cut firewood, garden debris, grass clippings, leaves, sod, vegetable waste, and wood chips. Blue Ribbon does not utilize any animal bedding or manure in this product. Tested by a certified lab, the compost meets OMRI’s standards for use in organic production as well as parameters set by the US Composting Council’s Seal of Testing Assurance program.”


I can use this with Leaf Compost, Mushroom Compost, Cow Manure (no more than 20%) and Earthworm Castings. 


Looks like this might be the best I can do at the moment. I asked for a 3 bin composter for my birthday. :-)


Everyone has been so helpful. I’m excited to get started with all of this. 
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Post  donnainzone5 9/11/2022, 2:45 pm

Blue Ribbon contains brush, cut firewood, and wood chips.  My guess is that much of the volume will be sifted out, and only the remainder could be used.
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Post  sanderson 9/14/2022, 5:24 pm

If there is recognizable wood pieces, just sift using a wood frame and 1/4" hardware cloth.

Considering how hard it's been this year to find multiple composts in some areas, you did pretty good.

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Post  KarenSB 9/20/2022, 8:38 am

Well… the beds are filled, perennial herbs are planted, back hurts and I’m excited for next season (and comforted that I won’t have to do this again or 10 years!!). Will try to plant some lettuce, etc… and see if I can get something before frost. Thank you EVERYONE for your generosity in answering all of my questions. I think I got a pretty good variety of compost - we’ll see how the plants like it. Time will tell! Is it possible to post photos on this site?
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