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Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
+3
boffer
AtlantaMarie
ralitaco
7 posters
Page 1 of 1
Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
I have a question for all the experienced carpenters, contractors, woodworkers, DIY'ers, etc.
When attaching 2x4 legs to another 2x4 like I did in the picture above, is it better to use carriage bolts as I did or could I have just used screws OR a combination of the 2? Also, what are the benefits / drawbacks of each method.
Thanks
When attaching 2x4 legs to another 2x4 like I did in the picture above, is it better to use carriage bolts as I did or could I have just used screws OR a combination of the 2? Also, what are the benefits / drawbacks of each method.
Thanks
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Personal opinion as a woodworker, you did much better by using the carriage bolts. That's a LOT of weight once the box is filled. Screws probly would have torn out eventually (and probly sooner rather than later).
Looks REALLY good, btw!
Looks REALLY good, btw!
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Generally, in house construction:
- screws and nails are used to keep materials in contact with each other.
- carriage bolts and lag screws are used to carry weight.
- the weight of horizontal members should be carried by vertical members when possible
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
FWIW, I agree.boffer wrote:Generally, in house construction:
- screws and nails are used to keep materials in contact with each other.
- carriage bolts and lag screws are used to carry weight.
- the weight of horizontal members should be carried by vertical members when possible
Nice job!
FRED58- Posts : 170
Join date : 2015-03-25
Age : 65
Location : Kincardine, Ontario, Canada
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Hmmm...I may need to put some carriage bolts on my other TT because I just screwed in the 2x2's every 6"AtlantaMarie wrote:Personal opinion as a woodworker, you did much better by using the carriage bolts. That's a LOT of weight once the box is filled. Screws probly would have torn out eventually (and probly sooner rather than later).
AtlantaMarie wrote:Looks REALLY good, btw!
Thank you very much.FRED58 wrote:Nice job!
That makes sense. Since the top 2 2x4's are not carrying weight, I guess screws would've sufficed there, right? Although, I think I like the look with the carriage boltsboffer wrote:Generally, in house construction:
screws and nails are used to keep materials in contact with each other.
This makes sense too since they are much thicker than the screws AND they go all the way through both pieces of wood.boffer wrote:...carriage bolts and lag screws are used to carry weight.
I think I did that by adding the 20" pieces on the back of the legs under the horizontal sidesboffer wrote:...the weight of horizontal members should be carried by vertical members when possible
Its worth a lot to me, thank you.FRED58 wrote:FWIW, I agree.
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
I think it looks just fine, Ralitaco.
Are those wire shelving units you're using in there for the bottoms?
Are those wire shelving units you're using in there for the bottoms?
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Thank you. I think it looks fine too. I was working on another and was thinking about cheaping out on the hardware mainly because I didn't have enough carriage bolts on hand. But now that I understand that the carriage bolts are used to help carry the weight I will just get some more.AtlantaMarie wrote:I think it looks just fine, Ralitaco.
And yes those are wire shelves. I got a bunch of them for free so I decided to give them a go instead of the hardware cloth. they are not galvanized but I think they will last at least as long as plywood, if not longer, before they rust. And how could I pass up on FREE.AtlantaMarie wrote:Are those wire shelving units you're using in there for the bottoms?
btw, I like your new avatar
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Ralitaco, you're putting a lot of thought into your design, so here's another perspective that may or may not be helpful.
Your design has good mechanical strength ie. the weight is being carried by the structure itself. Imagine it this way: if the only force on your TT was gravity pushing straight down at a 90° angle, your TT would support itself without any fasteners.
But in the real world, there are forces on the TT from all directions, such as wind, somebody leaning against it, not being perfectly level, etc. The 20" legs transfer the weight of the box to the ground. The tall legs aren't carrying any weight; they are strengthening the joint where the top of the 20" legs contact the box. That joint is susceptible to any force that isn't perpendicular; that's where any wiggle (and failure) would occur.
You could've strengthened the joint with gussets or bracing, but your design is probably the cleanest looking. I too would have used carriage bolts on the tall legs where you did, not because they are carrying weight, but because in the long term, screws might loosen due to seasonal changes causing the wood to expand and contract, and from continually resisting the back and forth wiggling.
You've built a very solid and good looking TT.
Your design has good mechanical strength ie. the weight is being carried by the structure itself. Imagine it this way: if the only force on your TT was gravity pushing straight down at a 90° angle, your TT would support itself without any fasteners.
But in the real world, there are forces on the TT from all directions, such as wind, somebody leaning against it, not being perfectly level, etc. The 20" legs transfer the weight of the box to the ground. The tall legs aren't carrying any weight; they are strengthening the joint where the top of the 20" legs contact the box. That joint is susceptible to any force that isn't perpendicular; that's where any wiggle (and failure) would occur.
You could've strengthened the joint with gussets or bracing, but your design is probably the cleanest looking. I too would have used carriage bolts on the tall legs where you did, not because they are carrying weight, but because in the long term, screws might loosen due to seasonal changes causing the wood to expand and contract, and from continually resisting the back and forth wiggling.
You've built a very solid and good looking TT.
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Probably too muchboffer wrote:Ralitaco, you're putting a lot of thought into your design, so here's another perspective that may or may not be helpful.
Got it...makes senseboffer wrote:Your design has good mechanical strength ie. the weight is being carried by the structure itself. Imagine it this way: if the only force on your TT was gravity pushing straight down at a 90° angle, your TT would support itself without any fasteners.
I had to read this a couple of times to understand but now I got it. I was struggling to grasp that the 32" legs were not carrying the weight because in my head they were the legs and the 20" pieces were the supports, but in actuality it is the reverse. (insert AHA moment here)boffer wrote:But in the real world, there are forces on the TT from all directions, such as wind, somebody leaning against it, not being perfectly level, etc. The 20" legs transfer the weight of the box to the ground. The tall legs aren't carrying any weight; they are strengthening the joint where the top of the 20" legs contact the box. That joint is susceptible to any force that isn't perpendicular; that's where any wiggle (and failure) would occur.
Since the weight is on the 20" pieces and the 32" pieces are supporting the 20"piece, would I have been better off using 1 or 2 carriage bolts to join those 2 pieces instead of just screws?
where would you have put the bracing...just on the short side or also on the long side too? I had considered running a band around the inside of the legs to make it sturdier but after I attached the legs, I was pleasantly surprised at how sturdy it was. I may go back and add that band laterboffer wrote:You could've strengthened the joint with gussets or bracing,
That was one of my main objectivesboffer wrote:but your design is probably the cleanest looking.
Really I did it because that was what I saw done on many other boxes in particular Sanderson'sboffer wrote:I too would have used carriage bolts on the tall legs where you did, not because they are carrying weight, but because in the long term, screws might loosen due to seasonal changes causing the wood to expand and contract, and from continually resisting the back and forth wiggling.
Thank you very muchboffer wrote:You've built a very solid and good looking TT.
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
6 o' one, half dozen o' the other. Basically, the long leg is holding the short leg in place. Another option is to glue the legs together, along with the screws.ralitaco wrote:Since the weight is on the 20" pieces and the 32" pieces are supporting the 20"piece, would I have been better off using 1 or 2 carriage bolts to join those 2 pieces instead of just screws?
That type of joint needs bracing in both directions.ralitaco wrote:where would you have put the bracing...just on the short side or also on the long side too? I had considered running a band around the inside of the legs to make it sturdier but after I attached the legs, I was pleasantly surprised at how sturdy it was. I may go back and add that band later
I have no doubt that your box would support a car. But if you want to add a band, use it to make shelf.
I'll mention this because it's come up in other threads: When making TTs for seniors, make doubly sure that it won't slide or tip over if they were to fall against it.
I can't imagine your TT's tipping over, but might be worth double checking once it's in place and filled with MM.
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
I was going to do that but did not for 2 reasons...1. I didn't have any glue at the moment and 2. I thought I might want to change out the 32" piece for a taller one for a trellis. In the end, I think I will go back and put in 2 bolts to make sure the pieces stay together.boffer wrote:Another option is to glue the legs together, along with the screws.
good to know. The band would suffice for the bracing correct?boffer wrote:That type of joint needs bracing in both directions...
But if you want to add a band, use it to make shelf.
Did that last night when I set them up but thank you very much for mentioning that.boffer wrote:I'll mention this because it's come up in other threads: When making TTs for seniors, make doubly sure that it won't slide or tip over if they were to fall against it.
I can't imagine your TT's tipping over, but might be worth double checking once it's in place and filled with MM.
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
ralitaco wrote:Thank you. I think it looks fine too. I was working on another and was thinking about cheaping out on the hardware mainly because I didn't have enough carriage bolts on hand. But now that I understand that the carriage bolts are used to help carry the weight I will just get some more.AtlantaMarie wrote:I think it looks just fine, Ralitaco.And yes those are wire shelves. I got a bunch of them for free so I decided to give them a go instead of the hardware cloth. they are not galvanized but I think they will last at least as long as plywood, if not longer, before they rust. And how could I pass up on FREE.AtlantaMarie wrote:Are those wire shelving units you're using in there for the bottoms?
btw, I like your new avatar
Free.... NICE! That's awesome!
You're right in not to go cheap on hardware. That leads to uh-oh moments pretty quickly. Build for the long-haul.
And thank you. I like to change it out every month or so to keep people amused.
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
I myself would take out the screws and replace them with coach bolts , once the thread has been well coated in silicone grease .
When the bolt head pokes through add a big galvanized penny washer and fit a Nylock type nylon insert nut .
The washer is to spread the load evenly over the softer wood . the Nylocl nut is to replace a spring washer that will be the first thing to rust through and also cause the bolt thread to rust .
That way you know the bolts wont pull through easily , if the legs get lose there is a fair chance of tighten up the greased threaded nylock nut
Use as big a coach bolt diameter as you can get away with , don't do a thin skinny cheapie for they often snap in half or strip threads under a bit of load /stress.
When the bolt head pokes through add a big galvanized penny washer and fit a Nylock type nylon insert nut .
The washer is to spread the load evenly over the softer wood . the Nylocl nut is to replace a spring washer that will be the first thing to rust through and also cause the bolt thread to rust .
That way you know the bolts wont pull through easily , if the legs get lose there is a fair chance of tighten up the greased threaded nylock nut
Use as big a coach bolt diameter as you can get away with , don't do a thin skinny cheapie for they often snap in half or strip threads under a bit of load /stress.
plantoid- Posts : 4096
Join date : 2011-11-09
Age : 73
Location : At the west end of M4 in the UK
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
Thanks Plantoid,
I have carriage bolts in place currently. I think they are the skinny cheapies, but they are better than screws.
I just finished setting up my first 2x8 and if adding carriage bolts to the bed sides doesn't sturdy up the legs, I will need to add some bracing or most likely a band around the bottom.
I will keep you updated.
I have carriage bolts in place currently. I think they are the skinny cheapies, but they are better than screws.
I just finished setting up my first 2x8 and if adding carriage bolts to the bed sides doesn't sturdy up the legs, I will need to add some bracing or most likely a band around the bottom.
I will keep you updated.
ralitaco- Posts : 1312
Join date : 2010-04-04
Location : Hampstead, NC
Re: Carriage Bolt OR Exterior Wood Screw
carriage bolts or regular through bolts with washers on both ends to attach the table to the legs due to weight of the table when full. Screws do not have a lot of shear strength.
As an aside, endgrain doesn't have a lot of holding power.... the screws that attach the short sides of the table to the long sides are going through end grain. There is a risk of the ends popping off over time.....
Peter (pretend woodworker)
As an aside, endgrain doesn't have a lot of holding power.... the screws that attach the short sides of the table to the long sides are going through end grain. There is a risk of the ends popping off over time.....
Peter (pretend woodworker)
petee_c- Posts : 14
Join date : 2016-05-30
Location : Waterloo, ON
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